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[Doom]

Patch Day!

Ret Paladins? Timberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

I'll let you guys know how Holy feels, maybe!

[Norondor]

Norondor has just as bad gear on his dudes but you'll find from his responses that he understands what he has to do to gear up and doesn't think it's worth it.  I can't fault that.

I am getting better! I wasn't willing to grind out rep with ogri-la or skettis but the new stuff from shattered sun offensive is actually totally painless, which is fine with me.

[Bal]

Old timer joke for those of us who were. To listen to you complain about honor grinding and instancing now is hilarious to those of us who saw people spend literal months showing the Cenarion Expedition how much they wanted some epics.

We don't talk about it.

Nothing can compare to grinding Cenarion Circle rep on a resto druid who is too poor to respec feral, partially because he is a restro Druid. I'd like to thank Dima for encouraging me to be a dragonscale leatherworker. I am still bitter, four years hence.

[McFrugal]

Doom- okay, so apparently ad hominem is something different from strawman, but my point still stands- it's not something that contributes to an argument.

However, you still misinterpreted some stuff I said.  At this point I just want to correct that, as I'm tired of arguing with you.  Or really, arguing at all.  You could say that happened at my "fuck all of you" post.

you've DIRECTLY stated three times that you hate grouping.

Dislike != hate, and I really only dislike grouping in TBC.  I discounted dungeons not because I refuse to do them; it's just not a viable route for getting gear if I don't do it often.  Hey, I didn't go into detail about exactly what I did in classic WoW.  Basically whenever I had a quest for a dungeon I would keep an eye out for group requests.  I did a fair amount of grouping back then- and enjoyed tanking- but never wound up doing the high end ones like Molten Core, Onyxia, BWL, AQ, or anything in Blackrock Spire.  I had to switch mains a few times and by the time I had one high enough to do those dungeons, hardly anyone ran them, or at least not ones I could get into.  On a side note... boy I tell you, I got tired of doing those newbie zone quests.

Beg to differ, assuming your gear is bad enough that you actively browse the AH for it. Also, the helm drop rate isn't so bad that you couldn't hope against hope to see it in a full group clear and the sword is a fine side-arm. It's piss easy to have shouted I HAZ SUMMONZ TODAY for the 14 days it was available and get between 14-70 HH kills without trying to sneak into groups without your summon available.

I don't actively browse the AH for gear, I browse it for chances to resell at a profit.  That ring from HH isn't so great for Fury imo, as it has no crit or hit.  You need crit to proc Flurry and Bloodsurge, plus hit so you don't miss all the time.

If you're going to summarize my entire post as "That Doom Sure Is Angry", I see no reason not to treat you as anything better than a verbal punching bag.

And man what was up with that Pacobird thing. "Pretend Opponent Isn't There" is a little

Me saying you're angry was a comment on tone, not content.  A strawman argument is "an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."  Like I said, my second statement claiming you were just repeating yourself was more of a strawman.  As for Pacobird, I already explained why I cut him off; he didn't argue against my position with logic.  I guess I used the strawman emoticon incorrectly though, as on retrospect it's ad hominem attacks that I had an issue with.  I will say one thing in response to his post, since you brought it up twice, and said I was ignoring him because he "smacked [me] down a little too hard".

Pacobird-
Titan's Grip was not part of the Fury tree for "two fucking years" of TBC.  I was using one-handed weapons up until now.  There's no reason I should have two big twohanders unless I had been Arms, and had a backup weapon in the bank.  Anyway, the two CFW were intended to be a quick fix until WotLK came out and I could get a quest reward to replace one, then the other.  I didn't exactly play the game a whole lot at that point, so any further effort would yield very short-term rewards in terms of ingame time.

back to Doom-
That's about all I want to respond to in your post, actually.  I mean, there are a few things I disagree with but I'm just not going to comment on them.

[Rico]

Nothing can compare to grinding Cenarion Circle rep on a resto druid who is too poor to respec feral, partially because he is a restro Druid. I'd like to thank Dima for encouraging me to be a dragonscale leatherworker. I am still bitter, four years hence.

It's a shame AQ20 turned out to be immune to taunt after all those runs; it was pretty good rep.

(PS life became worthwhile again once I logged on and found out I had a vanity title for exalted CC and CE)

[Shinra]

Old timer joke for those of us who were. To listen to you complain about honor grinding and instancing now is hilarious to those of us who saw people spend literal months showing the Cenarion Expedition how much they wanted some epics.

We don't talk about it.

I helped my fiance hit exalted with the cenarion circle way back when. (and the argent dawn! Though to be fair, that was in exchange for getting me the darkmoon faire amulet.)

When she asked me to help her get the title on her new druid I actually laughed in her face.

[Doom]

McFrugal: If your armory profile is relatively accurate(armory is broken as hell these days), I'd say the ring would've been a huge improvement. You worry about hit and crit and other mushy stats when you can actually generate a surplus of gear to roll on. Not to mention you always want multiple sets of gear. You need a lot more hit% for a monster than for a player.

I really hope you give tanking a go and roll with the grouping punches in Wrath. If you maintain interest in the game, all the newbie quests in Northrend will solve your gear problems and you can probably surf the first wave of people topping out gear with interest in grouping and friends you have fun doing it with.

[Pacobird]

Pacobird-
Titan's Grip was not part of the Fury tree for "two fucking years" of TBC.  I was using one-handed weapons up until now.  There's no reason I should have two big twohanders unless I had been Arms, and had a backup weapon in the bank.  Anyway, the two CFW were intended to be a quick fix until WotLK came out and I could get a quest reward to replace one, then the other.  I didn't exactly play the game a whole lot at that point, so any further effort would yield very short-term rewards in terms of ingame time.

So what were you using before?  If you do not provide me with the information I need to make an informed judgment I am going to go forward with the information I have.  We've been on notice of Titan's Grip for close to 5 months now; if you were planning on levelling to 80 as Fury, the only interpretation here is poor planning.

I still have to wonder why

1) playing this game solo means you're doing it completely wrong and thus any criticisms you have of the gear curve are highly suspect on their face, and

2) the weapons you currently claim to be using suggest, knowing nothing else, a fundamental lack of understanding/interest in the established methods of gearing up, which reflects poorly on you in the eyes of the strangers you will ultimately have to rely on if you wish to rectify the problem in (1) and thus have your criticisms be taken seriously

amount to strawman arguments.  You only feel they aren't relevant because you are unwilling to admit that your attitude about the game is your single greatest handicap in succeeding at it.  Which is fine, really.  Just stop being such a fucking baby about it.





EDIT: I would submit Tensard as a fine example of how stupidly fast you can get geared up in this game if you are willing to put your mind to it and be a team player. Kid had never played Resto in his life but was willing to try when we needed him to, and gained like 500 +healing in two weeks and basically became the guild's primary healer overnight.  He's awesome; I wish we could gear him even more.

[Doom]

Provided some awesome Resto DPS in a normal Crypts Run to finish the GARROSH IS SAD quest chain and get NAGRAND SLAM. Then hired a Retribution Paladin Friend to help properly DPS Dimensius for a Duo of that quest and INTO THE NETHER.

FUCK YEAAAAAH 227

[Doom]

230! Got all of the "Do Every Quest In Outlands Zone X" achievements, earning Loremaster of Outlands!

Bumped Engineering and Enchanting above 360. Have most of the mats for my Engineering Epic Heli.

Guess I can use dailies money for Haris Pilton's Gigantique Sack next! Ha Ha!

[McFrugal]

So what were you using before?

I made myself Blazefury, and a Blazeguard for the off-hand.  Took a small bit of grinding (half of 69-70, on Voidspawn of course, back when Mote of/Primal Shadow was actually valuable) to accomplish both that and get my flying mount, although the latter was mostly through AH reselling profits.

We've been on notice of Titan's Grip for close to 5 months now; if you were planning on levelling to 80 as Fury, the only interpretation here is poor planning.

Huh.  I only knew since August.  Still, I already told you what my plan had been.  I won't try to change your opinion of it.

I still have to wonder why

1) playing this game solo means you're doing it completely wrong and thus any criticisms you have of the gear curve are highly suspect on their face, and

2) the weapons you currently claim to be using suggest, knowing nothing else, a fundamental lack of understanding/interest in the established methods of gearing up, which reflects poorly on you in the eyes of the strangers you will ultimately have to rely on if you wish to rectify the problem in (1) and thus have your criticisms be taken seriously

amount to strawman arguments.

I'm going to be a grammar nazi here for a second, bear with me.  That is not the proper way to use a numbered list.

Oh yeah also that's not what you were saying in the post which I had previously declined to comment on.  Perhaps I had the right idea there, and should've kept ignoring Doom's taunting me about it.  Your first bit here:

Yeah, man; where the hell does WoW get off requiring you to be social and work together with people in order to complete your goals?  Video games are supposed to encourage you to become someone even your own mother finds insufferable!

That's a strawman argument.  It takes something I said- that I played solo most of the time- and misrepresents it as me saying that the game is wrong for wanting me to group.  Then you let the reader refute it themselves.

The rest of your post is saying obvious stuff- "Fury warriors aren't a versatile DPS choice" and "make a plan if you want to accomplish something", and blasting me for not having better weapons by now.  You failed to consider the possibility that I wasn't actually playing the game that much.  Also, you should know that by the time people ask for 'DPS', they already have all the specific classes they need for that instance, and just want a filler.  Still, it's easier to get a group if you're a tank.

Your post wasn't all strawman, but by that point I was extremely frustrated that nobody was even bothering to find out why I didn't have gear, and was instead yelling at me about it, so I dismissed it by lack of content.

You only feel they aren't relevant because you are unwilling to admit that your attitude about the game is your single greatest handicap in succeeding at it.  Which is fine, really.  Just stop being such a fucking baby about it.

My attitude... I'm assuming you mean that because I'm not the kind of guy that plays the game to upgrade his gear, I'm not going to be able to win even semi-reliably in PvP when I enter the 70 bracket.  A reasonable accusation.  In fact, I agree completely.

I just don't think it should be that way to begin with!  I'll repeat my central argument again, with even more detail this time.

Although there was some gear inflation before the Arena happened, getting the best gear took serious commitment, and skill helped a lot.  If you wanted the actual PvP set, you had to grind honor to get the rank you wanted, then continue grinding to keep that rank.  Skill helped, since staying alive on a winning team allowed you to be get honor from more kills.  If you wanted raid gear, you had to go to dungeons regularly, then have enough clout in your guild so that you'd even be allowed to roll on the gear you wanted.  Now, getting the best gear only requires persistence.  You simply have to lose a lot, and eventually you'll get it.  It doesn't matter if you're doing BGs or Arena.  You can lose and still be rewarded.  You couldn't do that before.  You absolutely HAD to kill the boss, and if you sucked your guild would dock you DKP or whatever.

Of course, now with it requiring no skill or commitment to get the best gear (hell you could get honor in a BG and points in Arena without even trying to win, so long as you didn't really go AFK), you will be flattened initially in BGs upon reaching 70 with all the people running around with that stuff.  I don't think losing is fun.

Well, unless you're playing Dwarf Fortress.


Now for some reason, this exchange made me remember grouping up for outdoor quests, and I don't remember disliking it at all.  I think maybe when I've been arguing about how I don't like "grouping", I was only remembering how I felt about instances, and my most negative points refer to experiences in TBC.  I had tried Ramparts a few times, and hated how all the mob packs were so close together.  The patrols came around corners and had short paths, making pulling even more difficult.  Add to that the miniboss patrol and it's a giant pain in the ass.  The bosses were designed to just make tanking as irritating as possible, with aggro wiping and knockback attacks aplenty.  That damned demon actually juggled you in the air.  The dragon was, initially, likely to land right next to the healer and 1HKO them before you could even pull off a taunt, though that wouldn't save you anyway if it resisted.  I just hated the design and how unpleasant it made my job.  I then looked around for info on the other dungeons and found out that apparently they're all (of course) more difficult, and one has patrols that walk through walls.  That put me off of instances entirely for a while, assuming they were all a load of BS and thinking Blizz hated tanks.

Oh, I also got tired of the rampant stupidity in trade chat, and left it off for the longest time.  Perhaps that's why I never wound up doing DPS duty.  I've only recently started turning it back on again.  That happened after realizing the price on epic flying mounts wouldn't go down when WotLK came out, and I decided to make money off the AH.  I was trying to use it just to avoid wasting money on deposit fees on certain items.  Leftover Adamantite Cleavers from skilling up, to be specific.

[Doom]

Skill helped, since staying alive on a winning team allowed you to be get honor from more kills.

Assuming you are referring to the first implementation of the Honor system(weekly ranking.)

Spoilers: There was almost no skill involved in this either. It mostly devolved into either not sleeping or account-sharing.

Ramparts Story

See this is what gets us. You had a bad time in Ramparts and you never went back? Ever? Come on, dude. All those "problems" you list are stuff that every tank learned about by his third visit. The fact that chain-running Citadel instances is the best way to gear/level at 60 made it a solid lock for teaching folks fundamentals.

There are almost never, ever any patrols/mob spacings that are so close together that they can't be separated.

Like, you're never intended to fight Thong-Shivas WITH those Four Mob groups in Shadow Labs. You just have to watch their patrols until they reach a safe spot or the very end of it.

and one has patrols that walk through walls

Which one? Crypts? Crypts is actually very easy with above-average caution.

Trade and DPS

That's the trick, though. The group already knows they want a tank and a healer. The odds are with and against DPS. Each group needs 3 idiots(6-7 in a ten man) to kill monsters. But every class can DPS and half of them are exclusively DPS.

It mostly comes down to whoever whispers the guy asking for more DPS first.

[Pacobird]

So what were you using before?

I made myself Blazefury, and a Blazeguard for the off-hand.  Took a small bit of grinding (half of 69-70, on Voidspawn of course, back when Mote of/Primal Shadow was actually valuable) to accomplish both that and get my flying mount, although the latter was mostly through AH reselling profits.

1.6 speed

(still doing it wrong)

I still have to wonder why

1) playing this game solo means you're doing it completely wrong and thus any criticisms you have of the gear curve are highly suspect on their face, and

2) the weapons you currently claim to be using suggest, knowing nothing else, a fundamental lack of understanding/interest in the established methods of gearing up, which reflects poorly on you in the eyes of the strangers you will ultimately have to rely on if you wish to rectify the problem in (1) and thus have your criticisms be taken seriously

amount to strawman arguments.

I'm going to be a grammar nazi here for a second, bear with me.  That is not the proper way to use a numbered list.

lol

Oh yeah also that's not what you were saying in the post which I had previously declined to comment on.  Perhaps I had the right idea there, and should've kept ignoring Doom's taunting me about it.  Your first bit here:

Yeah, man; where the hell does WoW get off requiring you to be social and work together with people in order to complete your goals?  Video games are supposed to encourage you to become someone even your own mother finds insufferable!

That's a strawman argument.  It takes something I said- that I played solo most of the time- and misrepresents it as me saying that the game is wrong for wanting me to group.  Then you let the reader refute it themselves.

It is a rational interpretation of your statements.  Which do you think is a more direct and honest conversation of the following two options?

"I think the sky is green."
"No, it is blue."

OR

"I think the sky is green."
"Are you fucking retarded?"

Qualifying your statements as opinion doesn't make them defensible and it certainly doesn't earn you the right to defend them on your own terms.  If you are not saying you reject the paradigm of expecting you to group then why are you complaining about the gear curve?  

The rest of your post is saying obvious stuff- "Fury warriors aren't a versatile DPS choice" and "make a plan if you want to accomplish something", and blasting me for not having better weapons by now.  You failed to consider the possibility that I wasn't actually playing the game that much. 

The rest of my post is blasting you for being a whiny bitch.  However, being the nice guy that I am, I decided I would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume maybe you didn't realize you were Doing It Wrong, and offer you some perspective.  Glad to know I ought not have bothered!

I know you don't play the game that much.  That's fine, as I've said repeatedly.  However, if you knowingly choose to play the game wrong, it is the height of arrogance and entitlement to think that you should be rewarded in the same way as people who put in the time.  We are all on equal footing, and if I may say so, Blizzard has completely eviscerated what was at one point a reasonably challenging game to accommodate you.  The least you could do is acknowledge that Arena, the one aspect of the game that actually maintains decent competition and challenge, is probably not designed with players like you in mind.

Your post wasn't all strawman, but by that point I was extremely frustrated that nobody was even bothering to find out why I didn't have gear,

Tensard got 500 healing and learned to be a resto champ in two weeks.  We already know why you don't have gear.

Although there was some gear inflation before the Arena happened, getting the best gear took serious commitment, and skill helped a lot.  If you wanted the actual PvP set, you had to grind honor to get the rank you wanted, then continue grinding to keep that rank.  Skill helped, since staying alive on a winning team allowed you to be get honor from more kills.  If you wanted raid gear, you had to go to dungeons regularly, then have enough clout in your guild so that you'd even be allowed to roll on the gear you wanted. 

I am going to give you a pass on this because you did not actually play at 60.  I did.  I raided as far as early Naxxramas and I grinded the PvP system through premade roflstomps to rank 10 and triple-exalted.  After that experience, I can unequivocally say that while WoW  involved a lot of pushing the right buttons and Not Standing in Fire, I am severely hesitant to say it took "skill".

What it did take was a fair amount of intellectual curiosity and, most of all, determination.  You had to be determined to show up at the right time for raids with your consumables and strats down, and you REALLY had to be determined to grind out the honor system even as you realized that the rewards you were getting out of it did not, strictly speaking, justify the time.  The greatest reward of it was knowing that you put your mind to something and you went out and did it.  That, for me, was enough.

Now, getting the best gear only requires persistence.  You simply have to lose a lot, and eventually you'll get it.  It doesn't matter if you're doing BGs or Arena.  You can lose and still be rewarded.  You couldn't do that before.  You absolutely HAD to kill the boss, and if you sucked your guild would dock you DKP or whatever.

ratings

Also, I would submit that on the PvE tip, as of 2.1, High King (the first 25-man raid encounter) reuired about as much depth and coordination as the second-to-last boss of AQ40 and Gruul was way more dps intensive than anything up to Patchwerk. 

The last boss of Karazhan is essentially a retread of Grobbulus, the easiest boss in Naxxramas.  Think about that.

now with it requiring no skill or commitment to get the best gear (hell you could get honor in a BG and points in Arena without even trying to win, so long as you didn't really go AFK), you will be flattened initially in BGs upon reaching 70 with all the people running around with that stuff.  I don't think losing is fun.

The game has been out for two years.  Two years. What the fuck do you expect?

Again, would you rather go back to the days of grinding Exalted Frostwolf in 15 hour AVs for an Unstoppable Force?  Maybe you'd like to do the Earthstrike grind?  

If you find a way for OMG SKILL to be worked in to WoW, by all means tell me how.  But as somebody who was dripping with purple at 60 and shamelessly lolled as he two-shot mages, if you are saying you think this was a better game when people were stuck for two years with Scholomance gear because they had to work in the morning, I am going to tell you to kiss my ass.

Or maybe you are saying you get frustrated enough to argue these points this vehemently because you feel offended that this game has a gear curve at all, at which point I am going to seriously advise you to uninstall.

Now for some reason, this exchange made me remember grouping up for outdoor quests, and I don't remember disliking it at all.  I think maybe when I've been arguing about how I don't like "grouping", I was only remembering how I felt about instances, and my most negative points refer to experiences in TBC.  I had tried Ramparts a few times, and hated how all the mob packs were so close together.  The patrols came around corners and had short paths, making pulling even more difficult.  Add to that the miniboss patrol and it's a giant pain in the ass.  The bosses were designed to just make tanking as irritating as possible, with aggro wiping and knockback attacks aplenty.  That damned demon actually juggled you in the air.  The dragon was, initially, likely to land right next to the healer and 1HKO them before you could even pull off a taunt, though that wouldn't save you anyway if it resisted.  I just hated the design and how unpleasant it made my job.  I then looked around for info on the other dungeons and found out that apparently they're all (of course) more difficult, and one has patrols that walk through walls.  That put me off of instances entirely for a while, assuming they were all a load of BS and thinking Blizz hated tanks.

Oh come on.  On the one hand you are lamenting for these long-lost, nonexistent days where this game rewarded skill, and then in the next breath you are complaining about wipig to supremely easy shit because you never developed the basic skills necessary to play the game.  

You remind me of people I know who graduated from college never having done an internship or bothering to develop a marketable skill, and then cried about how they were stuck at part-time, $8/hour jobs because all the employers wanted experience.

lso got tired of the rampant stupidity in trade chat, and left it off for the longest time.  Perhaps that's why I never wound up doing DPS duty.  I've only recently started turning it back on again.  That happened after realizing the price on epic flying mounts wouldn't go down when WotLK came out, and I decided to make money off the AH.  I was trying to use it just to avoid wasting money on deposit fees on certain items.  Leftover Adamantite Cleavers from skilling up, to be specific.

Fair enough.  Good luck.  Make friends.  I just visited a delightful married couple out in Seattle I met 3 years ago in a PuG Scholomance.  I am the better for having done so.



Best WoW screenshot I've got~

[King Klown]

Did anyone here get to run Karazhan when the SECRET PARTY SHADE was still active?  That was one of my favorite bugs.

I don't remember or was never aware of that bug. What was it?

[A²]

That sounds utterly hilarious.

[Brentai]

I wonder how many people thought it was intentional.

This isn't during one of those 6-hour instances, is it?

[A²]

Kara's pretty short with a decent group, I've heard. 2 hours, max, and that's if you spend time dicking around.

I think.

[Alex]

My understanding is that if you need more than five people, it's probably going to take more than two hours of your valuable time to do it.

[Rico]

You bastards went to Fremont without me?  I really should have gotten that Saturday off work.

Old Kara was about 3 hours after you got it down, I'd say.  New Kara should be about 45 minutes, but people in general are way too clowny to do that even though it is very, very easy; the wipes will push it to about 2 hours (because no one will run back either).

Re: Hellfire Ramparts.  Instances have been trying to teach you to pull the mobs back to an already cleared space roughly since Shadowfang Keep, not that anyone in the entire game ever learns that lesson (lol Curator trash pulls).

Re: Vanilla WoW skill-based raiding to gear up.  We had people aggro the yellow bugs on every single Twin Emps kill.

[Doom]

My understanding is that if you need more than five people, it's probably going to take more than two hours of your valuable time to do it.

You can kill Gruul and Magtheridon in five minutes.... these days. In their original forms they required a lot of skill and luck and probably caused a metric fuckton of wipes, but that doesn't change the fact that they were basically "Walk in, clear 4 trash packs, kill the god damn boss."

Gruul's is slightly longer because there are two boss encounters.

Karazhan at it's worse was still shorter than anything but the absolute best Molten Core runs.

Ah yes, and of course, Zul'Aman was DESIGNED to be an hour long.