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[Doom]

I guess this sort of answers my rogue question.

Pfft hahaha.

[Pacobird]

I am going to go out on a limb and guess you can't cheese Festergut with one tank by casting Guardian Spirit before the bloat blows its target up?

[sei]

It was fun while it lasted, but Drain Life no longer procs on a SoV proc or SoV stack refresh. It still procs off of RV application/refresh, Judgement debuff. Essentially a 386.91 DPS nerf for Bryntroll.

hoo hoo!

similar numbers for unholy DKs.

It was doing ~4-5% of Kubai's damage, but now does ~1%.

[Rico]

norn still #1 post-nerf. Scar 1k DPS above me but slated for buffs. This game is hard.

[Hraedon]

norn still #1 post-nerf. Scar 1k DPS above me but slated for buffs. This game is hard.

Awful price of not rolling a pure class OR a favorite class.

[Shinra]

Hurray for massive nerfs to prot warriors to compensate for them dominating a few classes in pvp!

I was really starting to feel good about them seperating PVE and PVP rules, and they start doing this shit again?

[Doom]

In the next content patch the current plan is to change Warbringer a bit so that it no longer allows Charge and Intercept to break roots or snares but Intervene would remain unaffected.

Apparently I lost interest in WoW because I am psychic and my amazing subconscious wanted me to get out of the way of this truck carrying a full load of retarded.

For the other side of this change, we certainly don't design 5-player or raid content with the assumption that the tank has Warbringer (or a way out of snares and roots in general). We understand that it can be a big help in specific situations but we don't feel it's the only option in any PvE circumstances.

"And Paladin Tanks can put Blessing of Freedom on themselves anyway, so who cares?"

Th.. that's pretty harsh, man. Almost literally no reason to not default to Paladin Tank now.  I guess Druids are acceptable, putting Paladins at Best Class and Druids sort of hedged in at Almost Best Class.

Also "dominating a few classes in pvp", more like Frost Mages facing a Warrior they can't beat with one hand behind their back.

[Shinra]

Yeah, I like how this is basically a solid "fuck you" to prot warriors in five mans. As for stacking SBV, for all but the most damage intensive hard modes, most prot warriors are doing this for the threat & damage increase. Cutting the dim returns down to the point where using any SBV gear at all will push you over the cap is beyond fucking stupid. I just don't know what they were thinking here.

[Pacobird]

There is exactly zero SBV on any t10 tanking gear anyway.  Speaking as someone who has tanked a heroic as prot nearly every day for the past year, this change will barely affect five-man play.  If Warriors did not have a ranged taunt, maybe.

[Shinra]

but but but

:( i can only crit 8k for shield block now

As far as 5 mans go, I was more referring to the dps contribution. I don't know about you, but I've #1'd more than few heroics. Losing that much shield slam damage fucking hurts, esp. when you end up in a place like halls of lightning with three green dps who don't know what they're doing.

[Pacobird]

So wear 2pc tier 10, pvp gear, and a 2.6 weapon like a normal person

christ

[Oz]

Or just man up and dps tank it.

[Hraedon]

There's never been a warrior nerf you didn't like, Paco. This one is a BONUS because it won't actually solve the problem they are allegedly trying to fix; it just makes things far more cumbersome.

[Shinra]

What I love is when Bornak says "Warrior tanks won't see a difference in threat or DPS in PVE gear" when there isn't a single piece of PVP gear in the game with block value on it.

[Pacobird]

I am just tired of the histrionics.  Remember rage normalization? That was a nerf.  The Hunger for Blood change last week was a nerf.  To get upset over things like this is childish Chicken Little nonsense.

ps bonus points for responding to something i didnt actually say.  This is a stupid change for a variety of reasons, but arguing that it sucks because it gimps prot warriors in heroics of all places is a really, really retarded hill to die on.

[Hraedon]

I inferred that you supported the nerf due to the fact that the only reason to defend it is if you concur with the devs that it accomplishes something.

If your position is merely that it isn't worth being concerned about, well, more power to you I guess. I don't understand that view, given that the majority of tanking done by warriors is in heroics (just as with every tanking class), but hey. I just don't like being pointlessly nerfed.

[Shinra]

I am just tired of the histrionics.  Remember rage normalization? That was a nerf.  The Hunger for Blood change last week was a nerf.  To get upset over things like this is childish Chicken Little nonsense.

ps bonus points for responding to something i didnt actually say.  This is a stupid change for a variety of reasons, but arguing that it sucks because it gimps prot warriors in heroics of all places is a really, really retarded hill to die on.

"This is a fuck you to prot warriors in heroics" does not translate to "This is gimping us in heroics". The truth is that, of the four tank classes in the game, we do the least damage in heroics and raids, and our one feather in our cap for DPS - shield slam - just got a huge nerf because of people stacking SBV in PVP. Which, by the developer's own admission, wasn't a real problem, because Prot Warriors were just the flavor of the month and weren't dominating anymore than any other strong PVP spec.

I understand that there's been worse nerfs, Paco, but I also understand that this nerf was completely pointless and accomplished nothing save for making Warriors even less exceptional. I understand that in the real world, raids don't bench warriors because they're not as good as the other tank classes, but in that ideal situation - where a raid leader could choose any 25 players and any assortment of classes for their raid - why would they choose to bring more than a token warrior to apply sunders? They have more trouble with AOE threat, are dependent on other DPS to generate single target threat, and do 30-50% less damage than the other tank classes. These were problems BEFORE this nerf and they're problems that are only going to get worse as Blizzard scrambles to break protection warriors in arena.

You guys love PVP, and I think it's cute, I really do, but I also want to take the moment to remind you that the 80% of us who don't partake in serious Arena play don't like it when Blizzard balances the game around 3v3 PVP. This is why we need different rules for PVP and PVE - we've needed them for a long damn time. Back in classic when battlegrounds and world PVP were the extent of it, it was one thing to balance for PVP - because it was accessible to people. But Arena is a different ball game and one most of us don't like to partake in. Getting fucked out of the game I want to play because of the game I've been shut out of is infuriating and I for one am really sick and fucking tired of it.

[Pacobird]

I inferred that you supported the nerf due to the fact that the only reason to defend it is if you concur with the devs that it accomplishes something.

If your position is merely that it isn't worth being concerned about, well, more power to you I guess. I don't understand that view, given that the majority of tanking done by warriors is in heroics (just as with every tanking class), but hey. I just don't like being pointlessly nerfed.

If I were to defend it, I would do so on the grounds that I defended (and would still defend) the Imp Zerker Stance change: SBV is a disaster of a mechanic all around and anything that gets us away from it has at least some merit.

stuff

I have not Arena'ed since May.  You are doing it wrong.


Gearing for Devastate/Cleave damage improves all the damage you do, including Shield Slam damage by proxy via crit rates, Armor Pen, and 2 STR - 1 SBV.  Gearing for Shield Slam damage helps Shield Slam damage.  The point of this nerf is not to nerf sustained Warrior PvE damage; it does not, and in fact it won't even affect warrior raid damage because nobody raids in block gear and the DR doesn't kick in until 2k block value, iirc.  I have 1500, for comparison.  It is solely for the purpose of nerfing five-digit SS crits from gear you would never wear in any real-world situation except Arena, where burst is king, much like the Prot Paladin nerfs. 

As for damage relative to other tanks, iPaladins are OP, Druids wear dps gear to tank, and Warriors would be on par with DKs provided they were raid tanking with 2.6 speed 1-handers.  The best damage buff Prot  could see would be a change to HS mechanics but i don't know how you'd do that without fucking fury.

ps Warriors have poor AoE threat because they have the best AoE mitigation.  I'm serious.  We put AP and Aspd debuffs on an unlimited number of mobs in 2 GCDs.

[Hraedon]

If I were to defend it, I would do so on the grounds that I defended (and would still defend) the Imp Zerker Stance change: SBV is a disaster of a mechanic all around and anything that gets us away from it has at least some merit.

I have relatively few problems with nerfs to SBV, as I agree with your larger point regarding it being problematic. I would argue that the steps they are taking (no sbv on t10 gear) indicates that they are sticking with their plan to address it in Cata.

My specific complaints are that 1) nerfs to sbv won't solve problems in pvp, as the successful prot-pvpers were and will still be stacking arp, 2) that blizzard's double standards regarding hard counters are growing less and less defensible, and 3) prot pve gets to be even more work for the same (or less) result.

As to your assorted other points: warriors cannot reasonably use a 2.6 spd weapon if they wish to maintain threat levels (edit: in raids), and DKs outdps warrior tanks in a raid regardless. If this were the original hybrid/pure level of distance (~5%), it wouldn't matter; we're talking a 1000-2000 dps difference. In some of the new ICC fights, particularly Festergut, that's enough to plausibly be the difference between a kill and a wipe; it's certainly enough to make a shaky kill a smooth one. Since prot makes easily the worst OT in fights that simply don't require two tanks, I don't think that lacking glaring disadvantages in exchange for that inflexiblity is too much to ask.

[Norondor]

I have relatively few problems with nerfs to SBV, as I agree with your larger point regarding it being problematic. I would argue that the steps they are taking (no sbv on t10 gear) indicates that they are sticking with their plan to address it in Cata.

They've already said SBV is gone in Cata and it'll just be a straight percent of damage blocked. ... Which maybe you already knew, but.