Brontoforumus Archive

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:


This board has been fossilized.
You are reading an archive of Brontoforumus, a.k.a. The Worst Forums Ever, from 2008 to early 2014.  Registration and posting (for most members) has been disabled here to discourage spambots from taking over.  Old members can still log in to view boards, PMs, etc.

The new message board is at http://brontoforum.us.

Author Topic: Wrath of the Lich King  (Read 239934 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Shinra

  • Big Juicy Winners
  • Tested
  • Karma: 34
  • Posts: 3269
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4560 on: January 17, 2010, 08:30:48 PM »

I think we're still straying away from the point that nerfing anything for PVP is pointless because most people don't fucking arena.

I understand they have to appeal to that portion of their playerbase, but pvp is more inaccessible than ever before (thanks, resilience!) and I resent any nerf put in place to appeal to that minority. This is why we need separate rules.
Logged

Norondor

  • Where I'm at is: Fuck you, get shot
  • Tested
  • Karma: 30
  • Posts: 4184
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4561 on: January 17, 2010, 08:44:10 PM »

I understand they have to appeal to that portion of their playerbase

No they do not. They just like to feel like WoW is a real E-Sport, when it's actually and pathetically not even good enough to be in basically the special olympics of the special olympics.
Logged

Doom

  • ~run liek a wind~
  • Board Moderator
  • Tested
  • Karma: 46
  • Posts: 7430
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4562 on: January 17, 2010, 08:46:06 PM »

Actually, the inverse is true. PvP is more accessible than ever before via PvE. There's no reason not to have 4 pieces of Furious and all the Titan off-pieces you can stomach. You can grab a 232-251 weapon to start with heroic farming or basic competent raiding.

The problem is that the Dungeon Finder has applied a burning bright focus to what I hope they update in Cataclysm release: Non-Arena rewards are entirely pointless. BGs exist almost solely as a terrible chore to get honor for off-pieces or to pad your Arena Points gain. There's nothing like drawing Daily: Strand of the Ancients and bashing your head against a wall for hours. All of the queues being 2-5 times longer doesn't help.

And naturally, you can just farm heroics for Stonekeeper Shards to avoid it. As it is, Wintergrasp is probably the only BG worth anyone's time these days.

I think that also round-about brings us to what bugged me about the Prot Warrior nerfs. I don't even care about the Shield Block Value, but the Warbringer nerf was just a terrorist strike in the War on Fun.
Logged

Shinra

  • Big Juicy Winners
  • Tested
  • Karma: 34
  • Posts: 3269
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4563 on: January 17, 2010, 11:46:52 PM »

You'll find that most of us out there don't feel like spending 20 hours farming badges/shards to lose 10 times a week in arena to someone who has fully geared out from arena points.
Logged

  • Magic Gunner Miss Blue
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65461
  • Posts: 4300
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4564 on: January 18, 2010, 12:55:31 AM »

Lynnych rolls 97 (1-100)


While I enjoy WoWPvP, someone somewhere said that WoWPvP is PvE mechanics that were haphazardly cobbled into PvP combat and they've spent the last 3 years trying to make it work when it's akin to trying to adapt a cat's butthole to rubber tubing.

Yeah, in theory, one can go in the other but it's going to be painful for the cat either way.
Logged

Pacobird

  • Just fell off the AOL cart
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65482
  • Posts: 1741
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4565 on: January 18, 2010, 04:18:16 AM »

Loathe as I am to say "Cata will fix it", GC's said several times they aren't fond of Heroic Strike's mechanics and it will likely be changed.  If it moves away from a toggle, on-hit, mechanic there will be no reason to use a fast weapon over a slow one in any situation.

At least you didn't say there are no slow weapons with tank stats on them, which is what I usually endure when I bring this up.
Logged

Doom

  • ~run liek a wind~
  • Board Moderator
  • Tested
  • Karma: 46
  • Posts: 7430
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4566 on: January 18, 2010, 09:22:26 AM »

Quote
You'll find that most of us out there don't feel like spending 20 hours farming badges/shards to lose 10 times a week in arena to someone who has fully geared out from arena points.

Straw-man. I'm telling you that actually gearing for and entering arena is childishly easy, not that you have to. You also won't "lose 10 times a week" unless you're irredeemably bad at the game itself(while not being in a comp to get over such) or literally unwilling to talk to your teammates. You will lose several times at first but eke out some dignity and points by strength of skill, comp, or raw experience you gain from losing. You also will not be thrust against an endless gauntlet of perfectly out-geared teams because you are not starting at 2k rating. Yes, you'll see a few. But you'll also see guys like you who have to start as well.

Your mileage may vary if you're actually on one of the two super-tuff Arena Junkie battlegroups.

If you hate Arena and PvP, OK, cool. But I had a 232 weapon and 1100 resilience in two weeks. It's not the best, smartest or most valid option, but I was able to hop right in in the ass-end of Season 7.

Also who're you trying to kid with "some of us don't want to farm heroics for 20 hours."  :nyoro~n: What else are you going to do once you're full of Triumph Gear?

And like I said my main concern is that right now, Arena is the only valid PvP measure and BGs are essentially worthless.

Feel free to disregard this post entirely, as I respect you hatin' Arena/PvP. My only real point is that I too hated Arena, and it turned out that with dependable teammates, the only hurdle is those first few growing pains as you learn to play in the very specific arena environment. Then my team exploded.  :;_;:
Logged

Shinra

  • Big Juicy Winners
  • Tested
  • Karma: 34
  • Posts: 3269
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4567 on: January 19, 2010, 09:36:43 PM »

I liked PVP a lot better when they didn't have rating requirements on every piece of up to date gear. It feels like it's a measure that's there to shut me out of getting into PVP.


Logged

Bal

  • Cheerful in the face of nuclear armageddon
  • Tested
  • Karma: 62
  • Posts: 3861
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4568 on: January 19, 2010, 10:16:20 PM »

Blood Council is a rad fight.
Logged

Pacobird

  • Just fell off the AOL cart
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65482
  • Posts: 1741
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4569 on: January 20, 2010, 11:01:49 AM »

I liked PVP a lot better when they didn't have rating requirements on every piece of up to date gear. It feels like it's a measure that's there to shut me out of getting into PVP.




Despite the sort of chest-puffing you see on forums, I think most people who play Arena would agree with you.  The only thing attaching rating reqs to every single piece of gear bought with arena points really accomplished was ensuring mediocre players stopped playing Arena entirely.  The "bottom fell out", as a result, and now you'll meet Bryntroll Rets and such at 400.

It's good if you have some sort of insane need for video game competition, I guess, but nobody likes the idea of losing 45 points because you were at 2000 and the matchmaking system put you up against a fairly competent team at 800 that severely outgeared you.
Logged

Friday

  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65374
  • Posts: 5122
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4570 on: January 20, 2010, 02:11:08 PM »

Season 3 was the best season. Rating reqs on shoulder and weapon are OK as long as you can get the previous season easily and it gives the chest thumpers something to thump about so they shutup about welfare epics.

Of course, they don't actually shut up about welfare epics and then Tom Chilton decides it's not ok for a player to spend a week grinding in the bgs to get an epic starter raid weapon and instead they release Naxx, the easiest raid in the history of every videogame while at the same time making pvp weapons completely irrelevant because in order to get to the rating req you'd need a better weapon than them anyway.

Why is it that when confronted by a problem, human beings respond by yanking the fucking wheel all the way to the right and driving off the side of the freeway like a fucking dukes of hazard video
Logged

Norondor

  • Where I'm at is: Fuck you, get shot
  • Tested
  • Karma: 30
  • Posts: 4184
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4571 on: January 20, 2010, 03:15:37 PM »

It's not human beings. It's just Blizzard.
Logged

Rico

  • Tested
  • Karma: 18
  • Posts: 1916
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4572 on: January 20, 2010, 03:44:08 PM »

Specifically, Blizzard seems very, very bad at minor problem solving.

Which is kind of odd, given that their entire business model for a while was to take genres with lots of minor problems, fix them all, and be heralded as genius idea men.
Logged

Pacobird

  • Just fell off the AOL cart
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65482
  • Posts: 1741
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4573 on: January 20, 2010, 03:58:26 PM »

I agree that Season 3 was the Best Season, and I have to say I miss the old rating system, too.  I understand the rationale behind the new one but the saving grace of Arena to me was that it represented a commitment to the idea that if somebody was Really Fucking Good at Warcraft, there isn't a problem with them getting top-of-the-line rewards in minimal playtime.  Being good at a game should mean you have to play less to accomplish your goals.

Rico and I tried 2v2 in the new system back in 3.1, and after stalling out around 1200 and gathering from Armory that we could in fact hit 1800 at our current W-L if we played like 400 games, I gave up.
Logged

Shinra

  • Big Juicy Winners
  • Tested
  • Karma: 34
  • Posts: 3269
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4574 on: January 21, 2010, 02:10:34 AM »

My biggest problem with Blizzard is that their developers, as a company, seem to operate like that nerdy kid in high school who wanted the cool edgy kids who all skipped class to smoke behind the bleachers to like them. The problem with that analogy is that the 1400 other people the nerdy kid goes to school with aren't sending him a check for 14.99 a month.

What I mean is, the overwhelming majority of wow players don't PVP - only a handful of PVP servers are heavily populated and PVE servers outnumber PVP servers to begin with by a substantial margin. on those PVP servers only a fraction of those people do Arena. I would guess that maybe 10% of the level 80 non-alt non-super-casual playerbase is actually doing any of this content. When Arena first came out it was different, but when Arena first came out you could reasonably get rewards through the arena system even if you sucked terribly.

Consistently, almost every nerf or balance change to a given class is because of... drumroll... PVP mechanics. Arena players whine because prot warriors are critting 12k shield slams or because tree druids heal too much, and instead of Blizzard band-aiding the problem for that aspect of the game, they make sweeping changes with short and long term PVE implications. Sometimes an ability that had interesting utility and mechanics in PVE and was potentially useful in the right scenarios gets utterly obliterated because of PVP and never gets fixed. (Raise Ally for one example.) And unless the playerbase rises up as a large group to object such changes they go through without any consideration of the circumstances. The ham-handed "drinking fix" from late TBC comes to mind here.

I just don't get it. I understand that their business model revolves around attracting all kinds of players, including xbros who have too bad of reflexes to play Halo. I get the whole "E-sport" thing and I get that there's probably about a million hardcore arena players who only play WoW for that aspect of the game. What I don't understand is why blizzard hasn't done what every other MMO and online game is doing and create seperate game rules for PVPers. It's not like there isn't a precedent or that they don't know how to balance PVP this way - Diablo 2 had a seperate ruleset for players in PVP and it was one of the things that kept players like myself playing the game for years after it came out and got stale. Sometimes I feel like Blizzard takes the hardcore PVEers for granted because they know we're not going to go anywhere, but the Arena guys can go play another game at any time given that they don't have much invested beyond their ten games a week. Insidiously, I suspect this may be the real reason Blizzard has rating requirements on Arena gear - to make it so that once Arena players are in, they're more hesitant to quit, knowing that when they come back they're going to have a much harder time catching up to the rest of the Arena community.

I think the reasonable thing to do would be to create a guild wars esque setup - Arena/Battlegrounds servers where you start at 80, get issued a set of blue gear, and can only do your PVP crap. They could apply completely separate game rules to these servers without the added effort of coding one ability to work two different ways in the same setting, and from then on when a PVP balance change gets made or a PVE balance change gets made, it does not have any effect on either side. We wouldn't be put in scenarios like we are being put in right now, where warriors, who already do less damage than any other tank class, get their damage nerfed for PVP and get awful threat scaling mechanics to make up for it.

Bloo posters keep saying things like "We don't understand why increasing the threat of an ability is such a bad idea" - it's clear to me that Blizzard's community reps are going through a constant revolving door, because when Wrath came out one of the things they proudly announced was that Blizzard was stepping away from threat scaling and increasing tank damage. Tanks that do virtually no damage but generate lots of threat are a relic from the past - like talent trees that are only useful in PVP, hybrids only being useful as healers in raids, blue drops off raid bosses and top tier talents that aren't worth taking. These were all Bad Things to begin with, recognized as Bad Things and fixed. Stepping away from that, and back to the so-called "glory days" is a big fucking mistake.





 :tldr:




no more pve nerfs to satisfy pvpers plz
Logged

Shinra

  • Big Juicy Winners
  • Tested
  • Karma: 34
  • Posts: 3269
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4575 on: January 21, 2010, 02:19:24 AM »

Specifically, Blizzard seems very, very bad at minor problem solving.

Which is kind of odd, given that their entire business model for a while was to take genres with lots of minor problems, fix them all, and be heralded as genius idea men.

"we felt death knights had an unfair advantage an arena with raise ally, so we put it on a 20 minute cooldown"

 :perfect:
Logged

norn

  • Tested
  • Karma: 6
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4576 on: January 21, 2010, 05:13:44 AM »

notepad.exe
Logged

Pacobird

  • Just fell off the AOL cart
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65482
  • Posts: 1741
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4577 on: January 21, 2010, 08:43:01 AM »

pvp is a part of this game

go play ffxi







dead serious
Logged

Norondor

  • Where I'm at is: Fuck you, get shot
  • Tested
  • Karma: 30
  • Posts: 4184
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4578 on: January 21, 2010, 09:24:35 AM »

pvp is a BAD part of the game. it doesn't have to be, blizzard is just terrible, terrible, terrible.
Logged

Crouton

  • Tested
  • Karma: 4
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
Re: Wrath of the Lich King
« Reply #4579 on: January 21, 2010, 11:23:06 AM »

No MMO has gotten the whole "balance between pve and pvp" thing right yet and WoW sure as hell isn't going to be the first.
Logged