Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Pacobird]

pvp is a BAD part of the game. it doesn't have to be, blizzard is just terrible, terrible, terrible.

Warhammer called to say that yeah, it pretty much has to be, mainly because of people getting mad about 12k shield slams getting nerfed.

[Norondor]

Warhammer's a fucking idiot, stop taking that guy's calls.

[Norondor]

I mean, no skaven? RETARDED

[Shinra]

pvp is a BAD part of the game. it doesn't have to be, blizzard is just terrible, terrible, terrible.

Warhammer called to say that yeah, it pretty much has to be, mainly because of people getting mad about 12k shield slams getting nerfed.

The issue is that people are mad about 12k shield slams getting nerfed when it hurts the pve dps of a class that already did worse pve dps than every other class in that role. A PVP nerf should not diminish PVE usefulness. Adding threat modifiers might keep the rogues from pulling aggro off of me, but it does not keep my DPS competitive with the other tank classes.

I can understand the nerf, but I want to know why there wasn't a component added to compensate for the loss of DPS in PVE - I would have been perfectly happy with a 6 second DOT or diminishing returns applying at a different rate vs non-player mobs.

PVE and PVP can easily coexist - by creating seperate rulesets for the two experiences. This isn't rocket science. Blizzard seems to be getting the idea with the recent resilience change (among other things) and most of their recent PVP nerfs have been targeted at PVP alone - this is a step in the right direction. That's what makes the shield slam and warbringer nerfs all the more baffling - with so many recent changes that apply seperate rules between the two games, why is this one an exception?

[Pacobird]

Jesus Christ. I explained this. 

1) Enhanced threat.

2) No one stacks block value in any practical situation because block is terrible and no relevant tank gear as of 3.3 has it anyway.  No criticism of a design decision is valid when it is based on Doing It Wrong.

3) If you want more damage as Prot, wear PvP gear.

4) Christ, who the fuck wears block gear?  Will you stop making multi-paragraph soliloquys about how little you understand Prot Warriors, please?

5) Completely different rulesets?  PLAY FFXI.

6) It isn't too much to ask that the spec of an already-strong class with the highest survivability and greatest control options by several orders of magnitude not also have the hardest-hitting burst ability in the class's entire repertoire.  Would it be appropriate for Frost Mages to have Pyroblast as their 51 point talent?

[Pacobird]

Warhammer's a fucking idiot, stop taking that guy's calls.

For many reasons, not the least of which being because apparently the devs agree with Shinra so there's nothing to do at 40 other than shit on keyboard-turners all fucking day

[Doom]

I think Shinra's argument is that Prot Warriors already do less DPS than other tanks and don't need to be hamstrung in PvE while King Paladin struts around, not that we'll all miss Shield Block Value when it's dead.

Granted that "King Paladin" is an effective argument against almost any class nerf. But isn't the argument that Warrior Tanks already do the worst Tank DPS, and a few hundred or even a thousand DPS can mean a big difference when berserk timer is breathing down on ya?

Anyways I hear they are streamlining more heroics: Old Kingdom getting less phases on Jadoga and the Elder, less trash-packs. Anolmalus getting less Rifts. And yes, they've realized that Culling of Strat needs a "skip the pageantry" option, but the code is atrocious and they won't have it ready for the next minor patch.

As somebody who liked the "Real Heroics For Real Men" difficulty of Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection, I must wonder what our Cataclysm dungeons will look like at this rate. Alternatively, I guess this is just the power of bitching for content that is way past it's prime.

Huh. The Lich King in two weeks. Cataclysm in Summer?

Resilience damage reduction doubled? I'm glad my next planned guy is a Druid/Some-Form-o'-Healer.

[Shinra]

Jesus Christ. I explained this. 

1) Enhanced threat.

Outmoded mechanic by the developer's own admission. I would rather do the extra threat at damage. The issue is that the dim. returns starts so fucking early that those of us still wearing the pants and helmet from T9 are hitting them. Sorry that not all of us have the huge number of frost badges to buy a full set of T10? but wait, now that I actually look at t10...

2) No one stacks block value in any practical situation because block is terrible and no relevant tank gear as of 3.3 has it anyway.  No criticism of a design decision is valid when it is based on Doing It Wrong.

people are still using t9 tank gear. But, for those who aren't, like, say, the best geared warrior tank on Ysera, with glyph of blocking and shield mastery they're still hitting the point of dim returns without using any block value gear! Brotip: block value stops adding to your damage at any significant point around 2000. And while I get that shield block (the ability) is not supposed to be a damage boosting ability, all the block value that's adding is completely going to waste. You're taking an extremely simplistic view of this nerf - it's not just an issue of shield block gear. It's an issue of the dim. returns cap being so low that without using shield block gear at all you're still hitting it unless you spec out of shield mastery and take off glyphs. 2k creeps up fucking fast.

3) If you want more damage as Prot, wear PvP gear.

Why should we have to trade defensive ability for PVE damage? no other tank class has to do this.

4) Christ, who the fuck wears block gear?  Will you stop making multi-paragraph soliloquys about how little you understand Prot Warriors, please?

This would be a valid argument if dim returns started at 3k sbv, but it does not. T10 tanks are going to pass the cap (the soft cap, being around 1960 - after this, sbv adds about 10% of the value until 3k, where it capes out at 2100) without the help of SBV just from the huge amounts of extra strength on t10 level gear. Top prot warrior on Ysera does not have the full t10 set yet and is still pushing 1700 str - that number is going up with every upgrade he gets.  Also: The best in slot shield has 150 additional SBV on it, adding up to about 400 sbv from that piece alone. That's 650 sbv from that single piece after talents, 710 after glyphs, 1420 after you pop shield block. (so, since that's up 20% of the time, we'll say 284 SBV.)  So from that one piece of gear that no prot warrior would ever wear if they knew what they were doing (lololol) you are getting 994 shield block value. More than half the dim returns (soft) cap. From just the fucking shield!

5) Completely different rulesets?  PLAY FFXI.

IF U DONT LIKE THIS COUNTRY (GREATEST COUNTRY EVER) MOVE TO FUCKIN CANADA YOU NIGER JEW

In all seriousness, this isn't classic WOW where everyone was pvping because nobody got to raid but the hardest of the hard core players. Everyone raids now - go into your average group of players in Dalaran and the vast majority are going to be wearing TOC gear. Not a lot, however, are going to be wearing gladiator gear or even have a full set of it in their bank. The balance has shifted, PVE content is enjoyed by a much larger percentage of the playerbase, whereas PVP, due to ratings requirements being added in and 2v2 being made into a meaningless arena bracket, is enjoyed by fewer players than ever before. Obviously Blizzard needs to keep making PVP balance changes because this is important to some players. But they should not be making these changes at the expense of PVE players, given that we make up a larger percentage of the playerbase by a gigantic amount.

6) It isn't too much to ask that the spec of an already-strong class with the highest survivability and greatest control options by several orders of magnitude not also have the hardest-hitting burst ability in the class's entire repertoire.  Would it be appropriate for Frost Mages to have Pyroblast as their 51 point talent?

Maybe if you'd read my post you'd have noticed I suggested other options to keep PVE warrior DPS from declining from the change. Burst damage means exactly dick in PVE, as does that vaunted control - last I checked, most bosses can't be stunned and any trash mobs where it would actually be useful to stun (outside of five man content, which we've already decided is irrelevant) can't be fucking stunned anyway. The AOE group damage reduction sho' is nice, but it's a real shame that's fucking meaningless if your OT is any other tank class because you're not going to hold aggro on the AOE group over any other tank anyway! What I want is sustained PVE DPS on par with the other classes, or at the very least close, but we've already established the other PVE tanks are doing nearly double what prot warriors do. Nerfing prot PVE damage - even if it's a relatively small amount - is unacceptable by virtue of the prot warriors PRIMARY PROBLEM right now being their incredibly small PVE damage.

The PVE damage of a prot warrior does not matter now, (I disagree with this, but playing devil's advocate) but blood queen and festergut are going to be a bitch on hard mode and Prot is going to be a liability, mark my words.

[A²]

Exalted with Ashtongue Deathsworn
Exalted with The Violet Eye (20990/21000 after killing everything in the place except Malchezzar. I could swear he was trollfacing me the entire fight)

[Norondor]

lyrai... how do you survive doing TBC content? I tried to do Netherwing and ended up killing myself, and now i am a ghost typing this. Do you take vitamin supplements or possess the secrets of Tibetan meditation like Batman or something?

[A²]

[sei]

Barely skimmed the last few pages, because when geared, the best way to do heroics is with 4 DPS, one of which is either a 2pt10 retadin with RF up, or a DPS-geared/specced DK in frost presence¹.  People with reasonable gear and familiarity with heroics will still blow through them (~11 min DTK, etc.) even with warriors tanking.

Before I get called out on heroics not being a big deal to raiders, and to just "please, think of the casuals!" (read: fresh 80s) note that raiders have to pound a lot of them down for t10, and that non-raiders will still be gaining access to enough good stuff (NES, other 232s, frost emblem rewards) that they will qualify as "geared" above, quickly enough.

¹...but switching to blood and letting AotD tank the occasional boss.  Whooooooo!

No MMO has gotten the whole "balance between pve and pvp" thing right yet and WoW sure as hell isn't going to be the first.

GW approach: make PVE so boring that players only care about PVP.

[Rico]

"We'll buff sustained damage in the same patch where we nerf Warbringer and the block conversion to Shield Slam. It probably won't end up being a 2000 dps increase for anyone, but it should help close the gap."

Number of people who didn't see this coming?  Be honest, now....

[Pacobird]

t shinra

Shield Slam changes
Currently, the SBV you gain from Shield Block (skill) is unaffected by the diminishing returns. I'm asking if this will still be the case.
The diminishing returns are applied pre Shield Block. It's the lesser of the two nerfs you mentioned. We picked a number that would only greatly affect tanks going out of their way to get really big Shield Slam crits, which is typically not the guy tanking Icecrown bosses.

It has been like this since the first shield slam dr change a few months ago; Shield Block ignores the SBV soft cap for Shield Slam.

Enhanced threat on Shield Slam, even before this propsed prot dps buff, DOES matter, because the more threat you get out of SS the less you need to rely on heroic strike and the more feasible using a 2.6 speed weapon for straight dps becomes.

Also, hardmode BQL and festergut may indeed be a bitch and prot dps may indeed be a liability, but this change doesn't matter in that sense because NOBODY IS GOING TO BE WEARING BLOCK GEAR FOR MEANINGFUL CONTENT ARE YOU READING ONE FUCKING WORD I AM TYPING

[Doom]

"We'll buff sustained damage in the same patch where we nerf Warbringer and the block conversion to Shield Slam. It probably won't end up being a 2000 dps increase for anyone, but it should help close the gap."

Number of people who didn't see this coming?  Be honest, now....

How surprisingly reasonable.

[Shinra]

t shinra

Shield Slam changes
Currently, the SBV you gain from Shield Block (skill) is unaffected by the diminishing returns. I'm asking if this will still be the case.
The diminishing returns are applied pre Shield Block. It's the lesser of the two nerfs you mentioned. We picked a number that would only greatly affect tanks going out of their way to get really big Shield Slam crits, which is typically not the guy tanking Icecrown bosses.

It has been like this since the first shield slam dr change a few months ago; Shield Block ignores the SBV soft cap for Shield Slam.

Enhanced threat on Shield Slam, even before this propsed prot dps buff, DOES matter, because the more threat you get out of SS the less you need to rely on heroic strike and the more feasible using a 2.6 speed weapon for straight dps becomes.

Also, hardmode BQL and festergut may indeed be a bitch and prot dps may indeed be a liability, but this change doesn't matter in that sense because NOBODY IS GOING TO BE WEARING BLOCK GEAR FOR MEANINGFUL CONTENT ARE YOU READING ONE FUCKING WORD I AM TYPING

Did you completely skim over the part where people are going to be hitting the dim. returns cap without the assistance of added sbv in the first place?

I don't get why you can't just admit that prot DPS is a problem and any nerf to the already bad prot DPS is detrimental to the class in PVE. What I wanted to see was a DPS increase to compensate, and Blizzard is giving prot just that, though likely only because people like me bitched about the problem you don't think exists - it's an afterthought to the point of "We haven't even come up with what to do, but if it will shut you up we'll increase your dps".

[Pacobird]

When did I say I thought Prot DPS was not substantially lower than some other classes?

This suddenly feels petty and small, because [Dread Pirate's Ring], motherfuckers.

[Friday]

GW approach: make PVE so boring that players only care about PVP.

In GW's defense, the PVE up until after the desert was fucking brilliant. After you hit 20, though, PVE becomes "grind for better(?) looking gear with the same stats and more skill points that you do not need."

And GW got PVP balance right because it is impossible to have a fight of less numbers than 4v4, making class v class balance completely irrelevant compared to what you bring to a group.

If GW ever had duels or world pvp, people would probably have bitched endlessly about Paladins War/Mos. And then Death Knights Assassins when Factions came out.

[Friday]

nerf touch rangers

[Norondor]

Oh, i had thought Sei meant Games Workshop!