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[A²]

Not the point anymore. Guild members are admitting that in vent people said "When the floor glitches. Leave the Valkyries alone."

In vent. Meaning everyone is now assumed that they heard it. Knowing they were glitching.

GG.

[Rico]

Well, A) They did ticket it.

B) Well, yeah, they knew the floor was glitching, they did it in 10man where it wasn't broken.  But they didn't know they were causing it, and when your choices are, "Stop playing the video game during the scheduled time for 25+ people to be online," or, "Continue to beat the fun boss," uh....

Which is why I laugh so hard at all the posters saying, "They're not releasing a video, they're guilty."  I don't think it's ever been in contention that the fight wasn't buggy.  Banning them for it is fucking retarded.

[Doom]

A) They did ticket it.

HUH! You'd think a Blue/GM/Whatever would step right in and kindly ask that they stop.

[Shinra]

Well, A) They did ticket it.

B) Well, yeah, they knew the floor was glitching, they did it in 10man where it wasn't broken.  But they didn't know they were causing it, and when your choices are, "Stop playing the video game during the scheduled time for 25+ people to be online," or, "Continue to beat the fun boss," uh....

Which is why I laugh so hard at all the posters saying, "They're not releasing a video, they're guilty."  I don't think it's ever been in contention that the fight wasn't buggy.  Banning them for it is fucking retarded.

A: prove it

B: Maybe if they'd continued to do the fight as intended - you know, killing valkyries and not standing on the outer platform, I'd have sympathy for them, but uh considering that the evidence shows they deliberately tanked the lich king on the outer platform and deliberately ignored the valkyries, it's pretty clear that they were intentionally taking advantage of the bug - even if they didn't know what the bug was that they were taking advantage of.

Whether they were deliberately aware of the bombs or not is irrelevant, they were aware that the fight wasn't working as intended and were aware that where they weren't supposed to be tanking/dpsing the boss there and they weren't supposed to be ignoring the adds. Kungen could prove that they were actively doing the fight as intended - as in, killing and not ignoring the adds, but he truncated the logs during that segment of the fight and is refusing to provide them to the community at large.

Ensidia has had a long history of exploiting fights to get world first kills. The question of whether or not those exploits were intentional or taken advantage of on purpose has been up for debate, but the evidence is pretty clearly against them in this case. Knowingly exploiting a bug is knowingly exploiting a bug whether you know what caused it or not. This isn't like Vashj dropping 20% of her life all at once because of a hard to repeat bug during a transition, this is "We know the fight isn't supposed to work this way, and we know we're supposed to do this in a different way, but we don't care so we're going to bypass all the difficulty of the longest phase."

If they'd been tanking Arthas in the center, away from the collapsing platform on the edge, where Defile can actually be a relevant AOE, it'd be one thing; If they'd been splitting off DPS to kill the valkyries on every pull, it'd be one thing; but as far as the facts arrayed show, they knew that something they were doing was allowing them to bypass that segment of the fight provided they were standing in the right position, handling the boss in the right position, and doing things exactly the right way. So, whether or not the bombs were the cause is irrelevant.

You can justify it all you want, Rico, but at the end of the day they exploited a bug to complete an encounter. They've done this constantly, and their raid core gets paid to do it. It's about time something was done about it.

[Rico]

I have never said that they were not positioning around a known bug, so I'm not exactly sure what I am justifying here other than my own assertion that the ban was retarded and so is just about everyone posting about it on other forums.

[Doom]

Damn! They actually hot-fixed and reduced Sacred Shield and Power Word: Shield by 10% to max the Healing hotfix! I am impressed. This is what I like. Logical conclusions that are acted upon within days, not months.

Also Paragon just got a 1st try 25 man kill with full legitimacy it looks like. They probably did an Alt 25 to get it down nice and messy, but hey, rerolling the same character twice and going for that extra crazy world-first attitude is actually good form!

[Shinra]

I have never said that they were not positioning around a known bug, so I'm not exactly sure what I am justifying here other than my own assertion that the ban was retarded and so is just about everyone posting about it on other forums.

So we agree they were intentionally exploiting a bug, even if they didn't know what was causing said bug.

So we agree the ban was justified. Glad to hear it.

[Rico]

Glad to see things are back to normal after a surprisingly long streak of sane, rational posts.

[Hraedon]

No one was asking them to not raid. I think expecting them to not exploit a bug that is clearly a bug is not unreasonable. It certainly is not an unreasonable expectation of other guilds, as blizzard has banned for less.

The ban is a rare instance of blizzard treating ensidia the way they treat just about everyone else. Presumably they were not banned for the discovery of the bug, but the deliberate exploitation of it on the kill attempt. People were banned for exploiting fucking geometry on flame leviathan, so I am pretty unsympathetic to a cutting edge guild finally getting the same treatment. If your larger argument is that blizzard shouldn't be banning anyone for faults in encounter design, than I agree. However, failing that, I'd like guilds to be treated equally.

I mean, they reported flower power too. Simply reporting the bug that you're exploiting doesn't save other guilds, and I am unconvinced that it should save Ensidia. If anything, they should be complaining about the fact that blizzard letting them off with no ramifications all the other times they cheated to get a world first led them to have certain expectations that ended up costing them the first Arthas kill.

[Shinra]

 

[Rico]

To be fair, if you want to bring up Flower Power we all should have been banned for our Ragnaros kill.  I would've gone with Disgusting Oozeling, their actual C'thun exploit.

My larger argument is indeed that Blizzard should not be banning people for faults in encounter design and especially not for obvious ones like this which are actually ones a QA team should've found, and ESPECIALLY not when you're in a position where they did it legit a few times, changed their strategy to work around the bug, and then you just let them keep doing it without saying a word.

In other news, I think the "make-up call" concept in sports is fucking nonsense too.

[Hraedon]

I wouldn't have (seriously) protested such a ban; every time I've exploited or abused game mechanics, it is with the full expectation that I will be temp-banned as a consequence. Flower power is the same level of exploit as the oozeling, in that both took advantage of unintended game mechanics in order to achieve a world first. The single biggest thing is that if they are going to be banning people at all, it needs to be consistent. People had every right to be outraged at the difference in how, say, Exodus was treated compared to Ensidia.

As I said previously, I agree with you that blizzard should not be banning people for botched encounter design. We don't get to bill them for wasted time on content that is untuned or bugged, and they are the ones with the obligation to make sure that the stuff they put out live is functional and reasonably tested. Missing a core profession cooldown is hugely embarrassing, though I disagree that it was reasonable to expect the GMs to step in.

[Rico]

As I said when it came out, I see 0 difference between MC Fire Resist buff from UBRS and Flower Power, and the MC Fire Resist buff was openly condoned.  And again, this is another one of those, "What kind of retarded monkeys do they have for a QA department that pretty much every patch has a problem with the Spellsteal flag or improper mob leashing, let alone any 'real' bugs."

[Shinra]

OK, there is a HUGE difference between mind controlling a mob for a long duration buff and kiting a mob from another encounter to another boss to exploit it's mechanic. The flower power buff lasts for 30 seconds and was designed to be a part of the freya encounter and the freya encounter alone. (you can argue whether or not it was supposed to be stealable or not, but clearly the mob was not intended to be in the room with Hodir.) The fire resistance buff from LBRS was clearly designed to be cast from mind control and clearly designed to have a duration long enough to be useful outside of the instance. If the fire resistance buff had been cast by Lucifron trash and required us to kite a mob from Lucifron to Ragnaros, and the fire resistance buff had been, say, a flat 30% damage reduction designed to be used to circumvent massive damage from Lucifron but not designed to be used in conjunction with the Ragnaros encounter, I would totally agree with your analogy.

You keep using these ridiculous scenarios to justify what Ensidia did ; exploitation is exploitation. What they did is no different from any of the hundreds of other bugs that guilds have been banned for. Back in the classic days, rolling raid lockouts or kiting bosses through trash using hunter pets got entire guilds lifetime bans - 3 days and the loss of an achievement for something that was clearly intentional isn't a huge punishment and it makes a statement that Ensidia isn't exempt from the rules.

FTR, I agree that we shouldn't be stuck with the burden of testing for these bugs ; but at the same time, when you discover a bug, intentionally altering your raid strategy to take advantage of the bug is most definately cheating - you can't just announce "Well, blizzard didn't build this encounter right, so it's not my fault when I get my easy world first" - the rules don't have special exemptions because you're on cutting edge content and have sponsors in Dubai that are getting antsy about your lack of world firsts through the last two tiers of content.

[Rico]

I dunno, for some reason I just can't see zoning 40 people in 10-15 at a time to a completely different instance as that much less far-fetched than kiting a mob a couple hundred feet after Blizzard specifically reworked leashing code.

[Shinra]

Kiting a mob a couple hundred feet, waiting about 5 minutes before pulling the boss to stack the buff up to 10, and then keeping the mob alive and kiting him around hodir's room the entire encounter so that the mages could continue to maintain their stack.

one involves seperating off into a few groups to get a small, relatively minor buff (at the time, what did you get out of it? an extra 30 dps from the gear you could swap out FR stuff for?) with a relatively long duration (30 minutes? 15?) and one involves kiting a mob to another encounter, holding the mob outside the boss's room until all your mages are buffed with an extra 250% damage buff, and then keeping it alive throughout the entire boss encounter so the mages can continue to spellsteal it.

These two things are not even close to being the same.
 

[Shinra]

Also, I want to point out that at this point in time spellsteal exploitation had already been documented as a bannable offense two patches earlier when mages were using it to solo half of Naxxramas. It's not like Ensidia didn't know that what they were doing was wrong.

[Rico]

The Naxxramas bans also weren't the first few people to do it—they just got their gear/achievements revoked—but rather the people who continued to do it after blue posts on the forums specifically said, "Don't do it."

[Shinra]

The Naxxramas bans also weren't the first few people to do it—they just got their gear/achievements revoked—but rather the people who continued to do it after blue posts on the forums specifically said, "Don't do it."

Exploiting boss positioning has been one of those things Blizzard has told players not to do since classic, so Ensidia does not have an excuse here, either.

[sei]

Every fucking dungeon I do goes more or less like this.