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[Pacobird]

There are three reasons Ret Paladins need to be as bursty as they were:

1) No healing debuff

2) No snare (Blessing of Freedom, while great and vastly different in application, is no substitute for Hamstring)

3) No cast interrupt viable to use as such

However, I will provisionally argue that healing debuffs are not as powerful as they once were what with the downranking nerf.  So there you go.

[Doom]

If they got those things instead of the ability to spontaneously kill any class/gear set-up in the game, then by all means!

[Pacobird]

I would rather see their burstiness come from long cooldowns (make them the melee APPoMPyro Mages) rather than Casino gameplay, but I don't have a problem with them being hyper-bursty as such.  The important thing is that there be a viable strategy to counter the burst; one could argue there is, though, and I've been starting to get pretty good at immediately trinketing HoJ to cockblock the JoC crit.

[Doom]

I'd be more inclined towards the pvp trinket solution if it didn't immediately result in two outcomes:

1) Judgment of Justice, enjoy trying to outrun a guy with 115% passive movespeed.

2) Repentance, if he wants to full heal himself or just watch you squirm I guess, Judgment of Justice, etc.

Does cock-blocking the SoC crit really do anything other than force the guy to chase you for an extra three seconds while casually 1-2-3ing you to death?

[Pacobird]

It does you a LOT of good if you're not a Rogue; between JoJ and Consecrate, there's really no way a Rogue can reset a fight against a Paladin who's playing offensively and that's nothing new.  It's just that prior to 3.0, that didn't matter because Ret was very weak and Subtlety was beyond ridiculous.  As it stands now, we're back to the situation where Rogues need to avoid melee* and go after casters.  That is as it should be.  After the initial round of Ret nerfs on Beta (Stun > JoC critting for 8500 at 77 with level 70 gear, etc.), I as a Warrior did not feel Ret burst was excessive if you could get around the JoC.

That being said, I think Ret PvE damage is a bit too high.  If I'm not mistaken, Moctobot was seeing literally twice as much DPS, though his gear is honestly not very good (Gorehowl etc.).



*Burst or no, if you trinket HoJ I can't see you having a harder time with Ret Paladins than you'll be having with Warriors, because Unrelenting Assault in Arms or suiciding on Damage Shield.


EDIT: To respond to Soup above, Metamorphosis is a little wonky right now and I would be surprised if it didn't see a nerf soon.  Playing with it feels way too powerful for where my Warlock's at and I think it'll ultimately have the same history as Skillguard.  The problem is that otherwise, Demonology is really, really weak.

[Doom]

I'm a Resto Shaman. I only have 100ish Resilience, but I guess the 47% DR and 9k health and ability to spontaneously full heal myself don't account for anything because Ret Paladins can faceroll all that too.

Edit: And even if I have low resilience, tell me how it would be balanced if I needed 300-400 to even approach a ret paladin, regardless of his gear. Where is Shinra, I would love to hear this.

Hell, they can face roll the full arena set warrior I'm healing. I can't really think of anything else worth mentioning: Warlocks are custom-built to trump paladins, so there you go, and any other caster is a stain waiting to be left on that blue two-hander.

Hell, they can win a 3v5 for us at the Lumbermill. I heal this ridiculous little 7k health Retadin with her dainty little bloo two-hander while a decently geared rogue goes to town. She survives with 500 health.

I'd be in favor of small adjustments to alter this, as you'd think that I'd be custom-built to withstand a burst assault, especially one lacking all of those damn poisons and interrupts. Switching Righteous Whirlwind to physical, or a physical/holy split, perhaps.

The 15% Mana Returned thing was a good idea. I'm not sure why any class would think they can get away with a 3 point investment for INFINITE MANA.

I don't mind if in a class vs class match-up, I come up short. The trouble was that Ret was at the point where damn near every class vs class match-up went their way.

Personally, I find Hunters and Warlocks to be pretty easy to deal with these days. Metamorph seems to result in a lot more dead moron than anything else, and the spankin' new Beast Mastery ender has resulted in a Ret-style Class Paradigm shift... without the invincibility to back it up.

[Friday]

Yeah, I'm a little surprised at how many people have been fooled into thinking that because they can have a dinosaur or whatever new BM is any different than old BM when the truth is it's still only good for 18 seconds and then you're going to wish you were marks or survival so you could actually, you know, do anything.

[Defenestration]

I thought BM was the awesome new raiding spec around BT? Working kill commands into your shot rotation and all that.

[Pacobird]

I'm a Resto Shaman. I only have 100ish Resilience, but I guess the 47% DR and 9k health and ability to spontaneously full heal myself don't account for anything because Ret Paladins can faceroll all that too.

I am almost positive I could 5-second-faceroll a resto shaman with 9k health and 100 resilience on Ataraxia as Arms, too, and I would be really hesitant to call her overgeared.  Notably, it would be even easier as Prot though it'd take longer.  Maybe.

Edit: And even if I have low resilience, tell me how it would be balanced if I needed 300-400 to even approach a ret paladin, regardless of his gear. Where is Shinra, I would love to hear this.

For same the reason you could demolish people as Demo or Affliction on Kasari at 60 in 2.0.  The new talents are balanced for 80, and while that may sound like me dodging the point, it's pretty much totally the case.  Crit rates at 70 are dramatically higher than they will be at 80 for a VERY long time and Resilience at 80 scales up way faster than it did at 70; a full-blue-pvp-gear 80 character has about -8 or 9% chance to get crit.  These unrealistic critrates are making burst classes like Ret paladins and Arcane mages seem stronger than they really are as sure as they are making Shadow priests seem weaker.

Hell, they can face roll the full arena set warrior I'm healing. I can't really think of anything else worth mentioning: Warlocks are custom-built to trump paladins, so there you go, and any other caster is a stain waiting to be left on that blue two-hander.

Purge Blessing of Freedom.  Apply Hamstring.  Win.  I really don't care how much Ret has been buffed; a Warrior/Shaman combo will not be in any way compromised by a Ret Paladin unless somebody's AFK.

Hell, they can win a 3v5 for us at the Lumbermill. I heal this ridiculous little 7k health Retadin with her dainty little bloo two-hander while a decently geared rogue goes to town. She survives with 500 health.

Rogues can't beat any melee right now.  That is as it should be, because Rogues are not supposed to be good at handling plate classes and gear/stats haven't caught up to 51-point talents yet.  At 80, the Rogue would win.  Assuming he's not awful.  Which he may be.  

I'd be in favor of small adjustments to alter this, as you'd think that I'd be custom-built to withstand a burst assault, especially one lacking all of those damn poisons and interrupts. Switching Righteous Whirlwind to physical, or a physical/holy split, perhaps.

Maybe.  Personally I doubt it matters much, considering I 1v1 Paladins all the time and I would logically be the class most affected by Holy damage vs. Physical.

The 15% Mana Returned thing was a good idea. I'm not sure why any class would think they can get away with a 3 point investment for INFINITE MANA.

Because that one person's mana return is the only thing your raid can benefit from at any given time?

I don't mind if in a class vs class match-up, I come up short. The trouble was that Ret was at the point where damn near every class vs class match-up went their way.

Not true.  People just get cuffed by a HoJ > JoC crit to the face and go directly to the forums.  Paladins are by no means overpowered if that is dealt with.

That said, I think the bonus damage for JoC on a stunned target should have been removed and it should have been a bonus crit chance.  That's the only nerf ret needed.

Personally, I find Hunters and Warlocks to be pretty easy to deal with these days. Metamorph seems to result in a lot more dead moron than anything else, and the spankin' new Beast Mastery ender has resulted in a Ret-style Class Paradigm shift... without the invincibility to back it up.

Metamorphosis currently makes Warlocks totally unkillable to melee; it's as retarded as Warriors being soloed by Felguards in 2.0.  This wouldn't be a problem if the base class were not as strong an anti-caster as ever.

Hunters will be fine once everybody gets over holy shit corehound and realizes Survival is the real wotlk hero class.

[Pacobird]

I thought BM was the awesome new raiding spec around BT? Working kill commands into your shot rotation and all that.

BM is the best raiding spec pre-3.0 because serpent's swiftness + haste + fast ranged weapon can get your auto-shots down closer to 1.5 speed, which makes your steady shot macro that much more effective.  Kill Command is icing on the cake.

A Thori'dal hunter I know reports some 70% of his damage is Steady Shot.  Shot rotations were dead in TBC, but are coming back now that Survival is really good.

[sei]

Thank goodness this discussion is around to make me miss WoW less.

[Pacobird]

I swear I'm not this aspie about WoW anymore.  I just can't abide tears.

[Norondor]

I would be more inclined to rant about how paladins aren't that broken but i'm listening to thriller so i don't feel upset enough to.

I will say that Retadins should have unlimited mana, or something that changes their mana bar to a rage bar or something. Mana is a terrible resource mechanic, as WAR has proven -- honestly, everyone should have Energy.

[Friday]

My comments about Hunters were in a pvp frame only.

[Doom]

Rogues can't beat any melee right now.  That is as it should be, because Rogues are not supposed to be good at handling plate classes and gear/stats haven't caught up to 51-point talents yet.  At 80, the Rogue would win.  Assuming he's not awful.  Which he may be. 

Misunderstanding here. The Rogue was on our side and theoretically the only person qualified to get a kill in what should be the five people curb-stomping us. They can't even get through the damn paladin.

I am almost positive I could 5-second-faceroll a resto shaman with 9k health and 100 resilience on Ataraxia as Arms, too, and I would be really hesitant to call her overgeared.  Notably, it would be even easier as Prot though it'd take longer.  Maybe.

You're a good god damn warrior. I've solo'd decent geared warriors in Arms/Fury specs because they couldn't burst through my shenanigans with MS up. Sometimes I just waited for my team to notice I was being hit.

Maybe Ata isn't overgeared, but that ret-tard with the 8k health probably isn't either. So why can he roflstomp me for the price of a one minute cooldown?

I'll admit that a lot of what my personal anecdotes come down to is irritation that I can be crit down, but the other guy doing it with terrible gear is no good, and it's so widespread that it's not some secret cabal of old ret pros abusing a revamped tree. The Hunter talent migration is hilarious, the Paladin one tragic.

For same the reason you could demolish people as Demo or Affliction on Kasari at 60 in 2.0.

Felguard wrecked faces, but what made me dangerous was Affliction on Kasari before BC came out. I had a tendency to have Siphon Life up on at least ten targets at once.

Crit rates at 70 are dramatically higher than they will be at 80 for a VERY long time and Resilience at 80 scales up way faster than it did at 70; a full-blue-pvp-gear 80 character has about -8 or 9% chance to get crit.  These unrealistic critrates are making burst classes like Ret paladins and Arcane mages seem stronger than they really are as sure as they are making Shadow priests seem weaker.

I get all this, and that's why I want to see Rets swatted on the nose or properly balanced instead of this knee-jerk stuff.

But I do want to see them swatted, because LAWL WAIT FOR WRATH is kind of a weak excuse for a month of face-rollers.

Purge Blessing of Freedom.  Apply Hamstring.  Win.  I really don't care how much Ret has been buffed; a Warrior/Shaman combo will not be in any way compromised by a Ret Paladin unless somebody's AFK.

God, you'd think so. I'd really hate to think that I've got to macro my crit talent and Nature's swiftness to Healing Wave the second the Ret engages the War with Earth Shield up.

Because that one person's mana return is the only thing your raid can benefit from at any given time?

Zuh? I'm pretty sure they're separate effect. The paladin gives himself 15% mana back, and the raid gets a passive regen buff. The complaint is that the paladin used to give himself 33% mana back. See Wiseman's stuff about a dude bitching about having to use drinks as a class with a blue bar.

Not true.  People just get cuffed by a HoJ > JoC crit to the face and go directly to the forums.  Paladins are by no means overpowered if that is dealt with.

That said, I think the bonus damage for JoC on a stunned target should have been removed and it should have been a bonus crit chance.  That's the only nerf ret needed.

Yeah, the WoW population is prone to crying, but this seems to be a little too widespread to think it's just the loudest voices on the forums. Nice idea for a balance, by the way. If only they heard your voices over the complaining.

Metamorphosis currently makes Warlocks totally unkillable to melee; it's as retarded as Warriors being soloed by Felguards in 2.0.  This wouldn't be a problem if the base class were not as strong an anti-caster as ever.

The 600% armor thing is harsh, but the Immolation Aura and the whole Being-A-Giant-Demon leads to a ton of hilarious suicide charges into groups with even one good caster. Maybe at 80 we'll see some scary guys who use Metamorph properly.

Hunters will be fine once everybody gets over holy shit corehound and realizes Survival is the real wotlk hero class.

Survival is the secret smart hunter tree. Ran Kara last night, had a pair of BM-tards rank 7th and 5th on DPS(That 7th guy wearing T4/Season gear and being only ahead of the tank and two healers.)

Our Guild's own hybrid BM/Survival spec topped the boards for most of the night and easily broke 1000 DPS.

[Kayma]

Hit 70 on the mage today. She's so hot. 

No squashling on the Shaman (my main and achievement whore) yet. The clock, it ticks...

[Shinra]

I'm a Resto Shaman. I only have 100ish Resilience, but I guess the 47% DR and 9k health and ability to spontaneously full heal myself don't account for anything because Ret Paladins can faceroll all that too.

Edit: And even if I have low resilience, tell me how it would be balanced if I needed 300-400 to even approach a ret paladin, regardless of his gear. Where is Shinra, I would love to hear this.

Hell, they can face roll the full arena set warrior I'm healing. I can't really think of anything else worth mentioning: Warlocks are custom-built to trump paladins, so there you go, and any other caster is a stain waiting to be left on that blue two-hander.

Hell, they can win a 3v5 for us at the Lumbermill. I heal this ridiculous little 7k health Retadin with her dainty little bloo two-hander while a decently geared rogue goes to town. She survives with 500 health.

I'd be in favor of small adjustments to alter this, as you'd think that I'd be custom-built to withstand a burst assault, especially one lacking all of those damn poisons and interrupts. Switching Righteous Whirlwind to physical, or a physical/holy split, perhaps.

The 15% Mana Returned thing was a good idea. I'm not sure why any class would think they can get away with a 3 point investment for INFINITE MANA.

I don't mind if in a class vs class match-up, I come up short. The trouble was that Ret was at the point where damn near every class vs class match-up went their way.

Personally, I find Hunters and Warlocks to be pretty easy to deal with these days. Metamorph seems to result in a lot more dead moron than anything else, and the spankin' new Beast Mastery ender has resulted in a Ret-style Class Paradigm shift... without the invincibility to back it up.

It takes less than a month to break 300 resilience and quite simply put, it is impossible to compete in modern pvp without it. It was like this way long before 3.0. Also, you're currently playing the easiest to kill class in PVP, which certainly does not fucking help. You have mail armor, a tiny hp pool, and you're based around healing or melee, without having any significant mobility. Warriors were bursting me down in 3 seconds when I had no resilience, and I was wearing full epic plate. It's hard medicine to swallow, but yes, resilience is JUST THAT IMPORTANT. If you don't have the resilience, don't expect to win.

You've been away from the game for a while doom, I can certainly excuse it, but most of these problems aren't related to paladins, so much as the state of the game changing. Before 3.0 it was warriors and hunters outkilling everyone 40 to 1, now paladins are up there too because they have the burst capability of a real pvp class. The problem isn't with paladins, it's with the design of the game and mudflation. Of course you're going to get squished when your enemy's raw weapon damage has four digits before crits. Try again when everyone is wearing greens at 80 and see how much things change.

[McFrugal]

It takes less than a month of marathon PvPing to break 300 resilienceget full epics and quite simply put, it is impossible to compete in modern pvp without it.

Fixed it for you.  Gear inflation ftw!

Edit: I am completely ignoring the healing part here.  Yes, resilience is important for a healer since it's basically an extra layer of armor.  For everyone else, you STILL NEED EPICS.

[Shinra]

2 blue pieces of PVP gear (for the +35 reislience bonus. It stacks with the gladiator 2 piece bonus.) (Gained from hitting honored with the basic outland factions. Guess you're screwed if you grinded your way to 70 without doing any quests whatsoever?) + 2-3 hours of alterac valley on an AV weekend for a pvp weapon + 3-4 weeks of doing your basic 10 arena losses per week for a couple of pieces of vengeful gladiator gear = 300 resilience. Alternatively, cut out the arena, add another 2-3 hours of AV and you can have your entire set in a fucking day. It's even easier now that you can trade PVE tier tokens and badges of justice for PVP gear. One karazhan run + 2 heroics. (Total combined time, provided a reasonably competent group - 3 hours) Bam, you just got 100 resilience.

It seriously takes very little work, far less than, say, raiding karazhan every week. If you're not willing to do the work, then you don't get to compete with those who are. Sorry. If you want a completely skill based competition, there are plenty of games out there for that purpose. But part of playing an MMORPG is getting a reward for all the time you accrue playing it.

[Doom]

Why do you keep mentioning my gear and ignoring that A) it is happening to everyone, high or low resilience, class x or class y and B) the ret paladins doing it are often lazy bastards themselves.

The bar to entry the minute 3.0 stopped chain-crashing the servers was "a blue two-hander, preferably freshly looted from your last 70 instance."

That's why them ret boys got nerfed, and them lazy ret boys are probably the ones crying the hardest.

I'm just sorry they had to leave Paladin hollow and broken when they were done.