Topic: Zelda Blows (Read 39411 times)

Brentai · « **Reply #160 on:** December 11, 2009, 08:29:01 PM »

I didn't actually stop playing because of the Triforce hunt.

Royal☭ · « **Reply #161 on:** December 11, 2009, 08:31:50 PM »

Man, Wind Waker could have been such a great game if it weren't for the goddamn water. I almost wish for a game of that scope and breadth but instead all connected.

Disposable Ninja · « **Reply #162 on:** December 11, 2009, 11:24:12 PM »

Was sailing really that ball-stomping unpleasant? I thought it was actually pretty fun. More fun than the horse, at least.

Not as much fun as a fully upgraded Druid-Plow while listening to Dragon Force.

Which in turn pales in comparison to running on water as a wolf goddess.

I think I need to make a chart.

yyler · « **Reply #163 on:** December 11, 2009, 11:52:36 PM »

I think Nintendo just has kind of a hard time balancing scale and travel time. Players want a large, open world, but if you warp through it constantly or travel too quickly the world quickly seems much smaller. Epona was nice in a way, at least in OoT, because Hyrule Field didn't feel overwhelming on foot until you got her, and ever after you got her it wasn't too bad. Epona also helped to enlarge the world by giving you access to the desert and the lake.

Now, say Nintendo wants to make a game where the world is flooded. They can't bar your access to places with pits or walls, like in OoT, so they use plot devices. And they give you your travel method right away rather than later, so they start the world a bit scaled up. This means that at first, you don't mind spending a minute to sail from one island to the next, like running around in OoT. But unlike OoT, you don't get faster transport and it never gets better. It gets mind numbing. WW and PH suffer from that, I think. It doesn't help that PH's warping system is merely a sidestep from WW's already mediocre system. All this could have been solved by giving the player magic sails or something, so they can scoot around faster.

In Spirit Tracks, why don't they let you upgrade your train's speed along with its cars? If some people give you passenger or freight cars, why can't they give you a better engine? It's especially frustrating because END GAME SPOILERS [spoiler]at the end you go REALLY REALLY FAST. It makes me want to find out if there are Action Replay codes to just go that fast in the rest of the game.[/spoiler]

So, yeah, Zelda's traveling system of late is annoying. Notably I haven't played very much of TP, but as I understand Epona is awful in it. It's kind of sad that even though Hyrule Field in OoT is a giant wasteland where the last seven flying sawblades in existence go to die, even that is better than everything else we've ever gotten.

Bleck · « **Reply #164 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:09:12 AM »

Quote from: Disposable Ninja on December 11, 2009, 11:24:12 PM

Which in turn pales in comparison to running on water as a wolf goddess.

I think all third person games could benefit from ripping Okami (or Devil May Cry [or whatever game it was that first did this]) off and having the system where 'the longer you move, the faster you go'.

Norondor · « **Reply #165 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:23:03 AM »

At this point i am inclined to think that the Zelda series could be best improved by Nintendo never making another one. We have reached the absolute limits of what can be done with sword and shield and boomerang and bombs. There isn't anything left anymore, and giving Link a new wind instrument won't change anything.

Bongo Bill · « **Reply #166 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:28:52 AM »

Except by and large it's not the puzzles - the things that actually use the bombs and boomerangs - that are getting stale. Phantom Hourglass excluded, those things have been steadily improving. Rather, the things you do in between the puzzles are getting a bit fatigued. Any moment not spent overcoming an obstacle or interacting with an NPC is a moment spent retreading old ground, either from earlier in the series or earlier in the game.

To make the overworld interesting, you have to fill it with obstacles. Which means making it smaller, as you can only make so many small puzzles that can easily be circumvented later on before they start seeming samey.

Incidentally, Twilight Princess missed a great opportunity to have spinner rails leading from everywhere to everywhere.

Norondor · « **Reply #167 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:36:13 AM »

The things you do in between dungeons are original, but not interesting. The things you do in dungeons are interesting, but not original. What a tough.

Disposable Ninja · « **Reply #168 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:40:25 AM »

So, what? Stick puzzles all over Hyrule?

That'd actually be pretty awesome, actually.

Bongo Bill · « **Reply #169 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:50:18 AM »

Maybe not anything as flashy as a puzzle, per se, but if you look at the world maps of all the 2D ones, there are obstacles everywhere that require a certain item to solve. Even back before they invented puzzles, Zelda 1 had really tough enemies impeding your advancement until you got certain upgrades. This holds true even for the non-Nintendo-developed ones, though I don't know if it's the same way in Four Swords Adventures.

They considerably decreased the number of overworld roadblocks in the 3D ones, even in the relatively limiting Majora's Mask (can't get into the mountains without arrows, can't get to the canyon without a horse, etc.). Majora's Mask, incidentally, had the smallest overworld of all the 3D ones.

The situation doesn't look much different if you consider the "overworld" to consist of anything not inside a dungeon or dungeon-like cave, but the huge sparse hub is a unique feature of the 3D games of the series.

Classic · « **Reply #170 on:** December 12, 2009, 04:05:07 AM »

Zelda games have steadily given you more obvious assistants and companions, and I feel like they have been improvements in general. I guess I kind of want to find the new Hyrule, crusing on the pirate ship, letting Tetra's crew handle the bullshit if I don't want to. Make them self-sufficient enough that I can trade in 5 minutes of scenic travel and/or minor encounters for a 1 minute loading screen if I see fit.

Or perhaps, a legend of zelda where the overworld, dungeons, and dark world are all connected. Above and below ground. I might be willing to do some knytt level backtracking for those kinds of things.

yyler · « **Reply #171 on:** December 12, 2009, 04:49:14 AM »

Classic, there are plenty of Zeldas where the overworld/dungeons are connected. The series is called Metroid.

Doom · « **Reply #172 on:** December 12, 2009, 08:25:01 AM »

Alternatively, they can make more Zeldas if they go balls out insane with them ala Majora's Mask.

Brentai · « **Reply #173 on:** December 12, 2009, 11:08:33 AM »

Zelda's got a decent enough format now that they can milk it for another decade or so without anybody complaining, as long as they don't go the balls-out Megaman or Tomb Raider route and start copypasting assets. The only problem is making the Overworld interesting, which they've been obviously trying to fix, albeit awkwardly. It's a pretty 3D-specific problem which I assume is the result of not being able to constrain outdoor environments as easily (as opposed to OH THERE'S A LAKE TO YOUR LEFT AND A MOUNTAIN TO YOUR RIGHT AND SOME TREES DOWN BELOW GUESS YOU BETTER GO UP).

Classic · « **Reply #174 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:33:31 PM »

Quote from: yyler on December 12, 2009, 04:49:14 AM

Classic, there are plenty of Zeldas where the overworld/dungeons are connected. The series is called Metroid.

TEHRE ARE NO SOARDS IN METROID!!! WTF ARE YOU TALKIN BOUT!?!

Also I just got a horrifying image of zelda+qtes for some reason.

Royal☭ · « **Reply #175 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:45:54 PM »

Zelda games seem to be increasing the world size, but narrowing the focus of that world down to dungeons. My favorite Zelda was Link to the Past because even though the game world was relatively huge, there was a lot of stuff to do. Fights were simple, easy to ignore if you chose, and there were plenty of side dungeons and stuff to explore in-between each dungeon. Wind Waker was notoriously bad at this part, because sailing just felt empty and the little islands and ships were pretty much all the same thing.

Brentai · « **Reply #176 on:** December 12, 2009, 02:14:44 PM »

I think that's the nail on the head there. The sailing isn't what's wrong with Wind Waker, it's the sailing and then finding nothing.

Doom · « **Reply #177 on:** December 12, 2009, 02:56:08 PM »

I think that's close to it, but not actually the truth of it.

Don't forget to add finding the Map Fish to almost every single tile.

It bugged me over time and it really bugged the Hell out of me in Ocarina of Time, but I think the real diminishing joy from the Zelda series harkens back to LttP again. Back when the Overworld was itself a massive mega-dungeon full of incredibly fun bonus rewards and challenges and stuff.

What bugged me about Ocarina of Time was that the world was hollow. Exploration almost always yielded nothing of import save for Heart Container Pieces. If you were really astute, you could find an extra shield or a bottle or something, but who cared? Ocarina of Time was easy for it's time and money was thrown at you faster than you could ever hope to use it, particularly since, surprise, there was nothing to use it on.

Then Majora's Mask hit and somehow, we had a Zelda game that "got it." What was that it? All the extra stuff. All the extra powers and side-quests(many of them better written and more interesting and powerful than the storylines of entire Zelda games, past or present.) The extra masks, many of which actually gave legitimate tweaks and benefits! I can't recall entirely, but I also believe they actually expanded on the use of money a tiny bit and thus that held more weight as well.

This brings me to that map above. I felt Wind Waker was a bit of a compromise. The ocean was not as tedious or empty as many people feel, but it creates an illusion of such because it was about half as empty as you thought. Doesn't make sense? Consider, say... the Beedle Boat Shop. How many of us actually went for his SUPER BONUS MEMBERSHIP CARD? It was a bitingly clever joke and parody, but it was ultimately hollow: your money was next to meaningless and never really needed and the things he sold you weren't all that important unless you were some sort of clown who chronically ran out of basic materials. And those were probably in bushes anyway.

There's a world of difference between finding a new Mask, killing a Biiiig Octo, and discovering an interesting island vs... another heart container piece(which is a terrible focus of exploration, in my opinion. Your brain eventually begins to figure that only one in every four discoveries was worth the time.) I think that's the crux of it.

So more Majora's Mask. More options. More things that aren't strictly necessary to beating the game, but can satisfy a wide variety of curious players and play styles! I want to see a map like the one above with an extra 50% of the nodes colored in with [FANTASTIC GAMEPLAY ITEM]!

yyler · « **Reply #178 on:** December 12, 2009, 03:09:30 PM »

Majora's Mask has always been and probably will always be the best Zelda, in every sense, and anyone who does not agree is either an idiot or stupid. The only improvements any Zeldas have made are PH and ST in terms of reusing items from old dungeons in new dungeons, but MM is still better than those. And it was created in under a year!

I think the problem is that OoT was considered so good by almost everyone, and the short turnaround and series-disjointed premise turned a lot of people off of Majora's Mask. Besides, why care about the sequel when even after its release people are still raving about the first one? Even today, on best-of lists, OoT is high up the list and MM is low, if it even places. It's disgusting.

Bongo Bill · « **Reply #179 on:** December 12, 2009, 03:36:47 PM »

I went for the Beedle membership card... because I used lots of bait. Not just for fish-guy, but also for Fun With Seagulls and screwing with mice's heads.

I don't mind heart pieces as such, because the challenge is its own reward for me, but absolutely yes are masks the best thing the series ever had.

The Gamespite Fun Club recently played Twilight Princess, and at the end, we concluded that the biggest single problem with that game was that they had all these interesting subsystems and minigames, but they gave you the tutorials for all of them right at the start of the game, rather than at the moment where they were actually used.

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Author Topic: Zelda Blows (Read 39411 times)