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[Classic]

When they were quite content to give you a new explanation on what the hell a red rupee was every time you booted the software.

[Royal☭]

Basically, instead of giving us Epona to traverse a huge landscape, they should just give us a smaller landscape with things to do.


Also rupees should stop being used as rewards.  It's dumb and makes me disinclined to do things.

[Brentai]

Heart Pieces aren't a whole lot better.

Missiles in Metroid are somewhere between heart pieces and rupees.

Point being, if Nintendo wants us to scavenger hunt, they need to start coming up with stuff that's worth scavenging.

[Miss Cat Ears]

Every time I start a new Zelda game I realize I can't jump and start throwing a fit until my brother tells me to shut up because you can never jump in Zelda games.  But it gets me every time.

[Disposable Ninja]

I want to see more weapon diversity in Zelda, myself. I'm always disappointed when I find out that my badass new dungeon item (be it the Megaton Hammer or stylish Morning Star) isn't and never will be anywhere near as efficient as the Master Sword.

In the next Zelda, let Link choose between the Master Sword (medium damage, 3-4 hit chain), Megaton Hammer (heavy damage, 2-3 hit chain), and battle gauntlets (light damage, 5-6 hit chain). And then let him learn (read: find) new combat techniques for each weapon. And then find upgraded versions of each weapon while exploring Hyrule.

[Norondor]

In the next Zelda, let Link choose between the Divine Mirror (medium damage, 3-4 hit chain), Glaive (heavy damage, 2-3 hit chain), and Prayer Beads (light damage, 5-6 hit chain). And then let him learn (read: find) new combat techniques for each weapon. And then find upgraded versions of each weapon while exploring Hyrule.

swell idea

[Doom]

Go play Devil May Cry.

Rather, Link should be able to use his tools to circumnavigate or gain awesome advantages in combat. Instead of the current system of "Use X to break X Obstacle, Use Y to break Y Obstacle, never use anything but Sword to fight." Link to the Past did this exceedingly well, as did Majora's Mask and Ballad of Windfish. (biiiig spells, charge boots, roc feather, maaasks and fooorms)

I can't recall the last time the Bow and Arrow wasn't used exclusively for puzzles, Light Arrow gimmicks, or "Generic Out Of Reach Enemy."

[Classic]

Be careful doom. You are edging dangerously close to suggesting that there be a link without a boomerang. That would be sacrilege.

EDIT: Yes you twats, I am indeed suggesting that sacrilege is a good idea.

[yyler]

in oot the megaton hammer does the same amount of damage as the master sword just as fast but you cant shield with it so ???

the giant blade though, that thing hurts baaad

[Doom]

Yeah I think the "moar weapons" boat has sailed and somehow it hit an iceburg and there were no survivors.

Oh cool, a sword that's twice as strong as my default sword and jeopardizes a too easy game! Awesome! That quest chain was worthwhile!

[LaserBeing]

Weapon variety is not the issue. The issue is that every boss battle is a puzzle with only one solution, and that solution is always blindingly obvious (i.e. use whatever weapon you just found in the current dungeon, hit monster in large googly eye, whack it with your sword while it's dazed, repeat). In the original Zelda, you could use arrows to beat the boss or you could use bombs or the rod or whatever. Nowadays if you do not follow the exact step-by-step plan that is clearly laid out for you, you will not pass. Essentially, Zelda boss fights are not enough like Metal Gear boss fights.

[Classic]

I think that the bow was used to passable effect in the moblin shootout sequences in TP. I also think Doom neglects that the bow is very useful against most enemies, just not necessary.

I think that alternate forms are a BAD idea given what we are complaining about in the zelda formula. Though it will take me a minute to explain quite why.

I think that if Zelda wants to keep having Link ride on transportation the key is to ensure that this mode of transportation is a useful constant, and not in any way feel like it limits my choices. If I am going to be crusing around the ocean on the king of red lions, I had better be well able to fire arrows, look through my telescope, at the very least not constantly have to use the sail to keep the boat moving.

If I am going to be riding around with Epona, Epona had better not be useless for more than half the game while I am a fucking (badass) wolf. I'd better be damned good at getting on and off (haha) so that the transition between walking and riding isn't jarring. I also want destroying enemies on horseback with my arrows and boomerangs and bombs to be just as possible as on foot.

Riding a mode of transportation should augment my mobility and versatility rather than strictly limit it. Note: Haven't played the DS zelda games.

While alternate forms are used to great effect in MM, it seems like they run the risk of being just as restrictive and frustrating as the transportation schemes we're complaining about. As cool as being a wolf was initially, the wolf form became stale towards the late game. Sections where I was forced to use the wolf form seemed obnoxious to me because I traded in virtually all of my normal toolset for nothing worthwhile in exchange (except perhaps to see more of Midna). More forms seems like inviting an even more limited array of tools with substantially less versatility involved. Or worse, dungeons where the reward is simply a rehash of something you've already gotten for your new form, e.g. the bow being a replica of the slingshot in OoT.

Finally, while I would like tools to be of more use in terms of exploration or problem solving (esp. "solving" moblins. Fuck those guys) outside of the dungeon that they're found in, my instinct says that even if this were done, to great effect, Yahtzee would still complain about other weapons having no point, echoing everyone else. I haven't played enough games lately... I'm not sure what makes weapons and tools unique, useful, and increase in usefulness as you explore their potential without encouraging the kind of over-specializing in one tool that makes people annoyed when using a different set of tools is required, or worse forget that the other tools are at all useful.

[Brentai]

Combat is a concession to the series' roots at this point.  Any combat that isn't integrated with the puzzles (like most bosses) is basically short and to the point.  Link can beat everything by jumping-slicing and that's just the way Miyamoto likes it.

The 2D Zelda games, at least up to the Advance generation where I haven't had a chance to sample, all made very good use of the various items having their advantages and drawbacks in combat.  Hell, the GB/GBC games made it viable to fight without the sword equipped at all!  I think like Doom said, if you need your 3D combat system to be rounded out you should go play an actual 3D combat game.  The 3D Zeldas are basically Adventure games with some vague Action thrown in to keep the "ADVENTURE GAMES ARE DEAD" people off their scent.


...I am not reading the 2 replies that popped up while I was typing this as they seem like a load of toss.

[Doom]

Lee-Ham's is spot on, Classic's is on par with whatever the fuck Classic posts(he likes to hear himself talk about things he is wrong about?)

Also I was dismissing Disposable Ninja for proposing that Link should have the Master Sword and an option to swap to Athena's Blade/Ifrit Gauntlets. In Link to the Past, I could brandish an Ice Rod, a Fire Rod, three different colossal fuck AoE spells, charge at my foe with Pegasus Boots, my titan gloves could throw rocks at enemies(in all 3d games, they're used exclusively to move puzzle objects), I could throw bombs, a boomerang, shoot it with the hookshot, shoot them with the bow and arrow at range, hell I could summon a magical barrier around myself and bump into shit or use another rod to produce a magical red block to also throw, turn INVISIBLE!, sprinkle them with magical dust for almost no real reason, or actually stab them with my sword.

Seriously look at this inventory.

In almost every current Zelda game, cut away everything but "throw boomerang, bomb, or hit with sword." Most enemies are in fact invulnerable to most applications of arrow/hookshot.

If anything I'm wondering why in a move to a "greater" game engine(2D to 3D, given common wisdom and not my own) that my Zelda games are worse off than my Devil May Cries, where I get my choice of 3-10 weapons and 5-10 guns and so on.

[Doom]

Looking over and comparing item lists, it's weird that Ocarina of Time has almost as many miscellaneous and wacky items, but they're invalidated infinitely faster. Several of them don't last you past the tutorial dungeon. What is the cause of this, built into the very game itself?

[Disposable Ninja]

When I suggested a more weapon variety, I was going off what Doom wrote about there not being enough rewards from exploration, not out of some inexplicable desire to see the game turn into a Devil May Cry clone.

I was thinking about how in Twilight Princess you would find the Sword Master found all across Hyrule, and how he'd teach you a variety of techniques. I just figured, hey: triple that.

[Doom]

Improved Link Combat would be nice. Wind Waker did it a little too subtle, but it was a nice nod to the player that the only way to actually beat the game was to be capable of performing every combat move in the game.

I was more ragging on you for combat variety. Link works well with his iconic style, now if only that style involved more than Jump-Slash or Slash-Three-Times. At most, I'd suggest maybe a single dramatic update(option to drop shield for off-hand short sword? Working Bow and Arrow/Boomerang/Hookshot into active combat and combos, not one shot uses for stuns?)

Exploration for combat rewards adds something slightly more interesting than Heart Pieces/Rupees, and if you have split paths of progression(beat Tutorial Dungeon, Dungeons 1 and 2 open up. Beat Half-way point, Dungeons 6, 7 and 8 open up) would allow unique styles to emerge. Guys who find the Arrow Master and clear Dungeon 7 first for Sword Technique Alpha will be different than guys who found the Double Long-Shot and beat Dungeon 8 first.

[Classic]

Edited previous post to contain less crazy and possess something resembling a cogent argument. Thanks to doom for pointing out it did not actually make any sense.

I like the WW approach to fighting, where combat is made breezy and awesome by a consistently applied QTE. What surprises me looking back at Link's Awakening (that's the one with the wind fish) in contrast to LttP/OoT is that the latter is more interested in making using your tools convenient for you. Whereas the former makes up for its apparent item limitations by giving you fuck-awesome combinations of shit to do with your items. Bomb+arrows being amongst the most entertaining. With the option to have three items ready at a time, I'd really like to see more practical and fun item combinations. The TP hook-dealie would be awesome if you could use it in tandem with any kind of offensive tool, instead of just pretending to be a green spider-man. The spinner would be a tiny miracle of awesome if you could use it and bombs in tandem to make ridiculous jumps.

Finally, I had really forgotten how much I missed having screen clearing spells. As well as the option to use the screen fire spell to instantly light every lightable thing in a dungeon room. I wonder why the series is moving away from Link having a magic meter.

[Doom]

Your post makes a bit more sense but I must contend that you are lumping in Majora's Mask Transformations(the one example of Alternate Forms being absolutely awesome) with all other instances of Alternate Forms. We're arguing for more variety and use of items and Majora's Mask was pretty much King in this regard.

They added the three forms of Deku, Goron and Zora without impeding the natural flow of traditional items you find in dungeons and added all the masks on top of that!

I can recall that all three were useful at various points in combat and that I would swap constantly, rather than other 3D Zelda Games practically punishing me for not going Sword and Board.

So yeah Combat is the best when the player is allowed to paint the picture in items!

[Thad]

The only problem is making the Overworld interesting, which they've been obviously trying to fix, albeit awkwardly.  It's a pretty 3D-specific problem which I assume is the result of not being able to constrain outdoor environments as easily (as opposed to OH THERE'S A LAKE TO YOUR LEFT AND A MOUNTAIN TO YOUR RIGHT AND SOME TREES DOWN BELOW GUESS YOU BETTER GO UP).

Most of the complaints in this thread go back to "more 2D Zeldas please".  I am okay with that.

I would add "make the minigames optional."

Also, I am gathering from the chatter here that I really need to play Majora's Mask.  I have a copy of the Cube release that I got as some kind of preorder bonus with Wind Waker or something; maybe I should bust that out one of these days.