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[François]

In the finale, one of the shotgun guys needs to man the minigun (if minigun there is), because he only has to let go of the artillery when he's got to literally knock zombies off his back.

I actually think an AR guy should use the minigun, because the shotguns are better at knocking away groups from him.

The minigun is overrated, in my opinion.  Especially at the end of No Mercy; very few zombies come from the helipad.

Well, I feel safer with people firing at my surroundings with the AR than with the shotgun...  But there's huge variance according to individual skill with weapons and such. It's pretty much impossible to make a plan that'll account for every situation.

It's just like the minigun's usefulness, actually. Sometimes every zombie comes in just out of its field of fire, or on the wrong side entirely. Sometimes they keep showing up in front, and get mowed down in droves. Depends entirely on how much of a bastard the director is at the time.

As for the hunter rifle's deadliness, it's because it's one shot one kill, at any range, with a decent rate of fire, and when fired in crowds a single bullet can take out like 3-5 zombies. With 15 shots in a clip, at a conservative 2 or 3 victims per shot, you can easily rack in 30-45 kills in a big mob before having to reload. Add in all the occasions for mass long-distance sniping the game throws at you (airport main hall ftw), and you got the kill count explained.

On the other hand, barring headshots, the AR needs 2 or 3 bullets to take a single zombie out (I think?); on a full clip you'll get about 20-25 kills.

That said, a sniper might thin out a horde faster than a guy with the assault rifle, but the linear nature of his weapon means that the zombies he doesn't instantly kill are not hindered in the least and can close distance uncontested. Shotguns and assault rifles are still required to apply stopping power laterally and keep the entire frontline from regressing.

[Bongo Bill]

I like to take the sniper rifle and kill fifteen or twenty zombies in the area we're about to storm.

[Kazz]

Oh, you know, another FRONDLY TIP:

#9. If there are a bunch of idle zombies ahead, puking and stumbling and milling around, don't waste your ammunition: pick them off with your pistols.

[Bal]

The auto-shotgun is by far the best crowd control weapon, capable of killing zombies ten at a time when they're clumped up together, and it's definitely the best tank killer as well, followed by the hunting rifle, and then the AR. The best weapon layout for the finale is usually either two each of the AR and the auto-shotty, or three ARs and one auto-shotty for cleaning up close in. It just depends on the design of the area, and how much close in fighting you expect to do.

That said though, don't be afraid to switch it up. If you've been using an AR, and suddenly a tank spawns, or things are getting rough in melee, grabbing that auto-shotty isn't just a good idea, it's actually faster than reloading.

[Kazz]

I think we should address the topic of formations and roles.  People tend to bugger off, and frankly the partner system still leaves them vulnerable.  All four people should be reasonably close at all times; I know that makes them vulnerable to Boomers, but an intelligent squad can overcome the occasional vomit (ie Don't Fucking Shoot Them).

I think the healthiest guy should always be in the lead, first of all, and if anybody in the squad is firing a gun, he should be crouched.  The lead guy should probably have one of the ARs and his primary focus should be taking care of boomers.  Nobody in the group should shoot a boomer except for the leader.  He's the most likely to get vomitted on.  Whether it happens or not, he has to beat the boomer back and take him out and everybody else should avoid him when that's happening.  The zombies are all going to go straight for him; instead of hanging out near him, it's better to set up angles so that the zombies run right across your field of fire.

Behind him should be two guys, one with a sniper rifle and one with a shotgun.  The shotgun guy should protect the group from hunters; usually, in a big fight, if someone gets huntered, everybody turns and tries to help.  This is noble, but in a large fight, the zombie horde is the real threat and requires due attention if anybody's going to make it any further.  Therefore, this is the guy people should call if anybody's been tackled.  He should always be close enough to help.  As for the Sniper guy, he should be watching for smokers and setting up witch kills (if necessary).  I don't know much about the Hunting Rifle's capabilities so I will leave further pontification up to Noro and Zed.

The last guy should have a AR and needs to watch the rear like he's an ass inspector.  The AI Director LOVES throwing shit behind everybody, and Versus opponents find great pleasure in sneaking up from an unexpected angle.  The last guy should be expecting all of those angles.  He should also be in charge of pipe bombs, molotovs, gas can/propane tank traps, etc.

As always, if you're under attack, crouch.  And even if you're not, it's a decent idea.  If you're safe, the guy ahead of you should crouch so that you have a good angle over him.

Of course, these are just general guidelines, and in the real game people aren't going to be super-organized (for instance, when the Tank spawns, this rulebook goes right out the window).  But it's worthy food for thought.

[Norondor]

Rifle guy needs to be able to break from the group when convenient and may want to take point on corners leading into parking lots, hallways and other areas with a long field of fire and, probably, a few zombies milling around. Similar to the shotgun, the rifle has a ludicrous amount of ammo -- a full 11 clips, all told -- and it never, ever gets used up, while AR Jackson can easily run himself out if he feels like heatshotting enemies in the distance. Rifles can easily clear out stragglers, and if a horde spawns in a hallway, they can save the AR guy a lot of fucking ammo which may be dearly needed in the event that a boomer gets lucky or someone panics and shoots one right up close.

Agree with having a sharpshooter in the rear, mostly for smokers. AR or rifle can perform this role well -- AR will do better against unexpected hordes* and rifle can one-shot a smoker with a hit anywhere on its body, assuming they themselves aren't snagged before they can get a shot off.

Also, might want to have rifle guy set off traps, due to infinite material penetration (oncoming zombies can gum up the works if you use an AR to try and shoot a gas can, but that does not really happen with the rifle) and the fact that, really, they can just wait with the scope until a good shot presents itself.


*unexpected being the key word: the rifle CANNOT be used while moving. the second you move faster than a crawl, your accuracy goes right out the window and you may as well be shooting blanks.

[MadMAxJr]

On the No Mercy final map, if you're going to hole up on the rooftop of the radio building, for the love of everything you consider holy, please have someone watching the stairs that go up the back.

[Bal]

Of course. Someone should be watching everywhere.

[James Edward Smith]

To clear up an earlier point, the minigun is far from useless, it's just very easily fucked over by the randomness and not so randomness of the AI director. We were doing Dead Air last night and I was manning it to pretty good effect. If hordes spawn behind the fuel truck, or far to the right, then obviously, it's worthless for those spawns, but when they come from either side of the pit, you can mow down dozens of zombies with a single burst and the thing never runs out of ammo.

It's capability for slaughter of hordes and boss zombies alike under the right circumstances is not to be ignored. You just have to be able to identify when you should go grab it, and when you should let go so you can assist in firing in a direction that it doesn't cover. You also need to be able to anticipate threat locations as quickly as possible so you can get it spun up.

• ex. I hear a hunter behind that truck *keep firing at the horde you still haven't completely destroyed*. Yup, there's his arm peaking out now *stop firing to cool barrels and aim over at him*. Okay, he's moving out now *immediate start spinning the gun*. Eat shit asshole.

People need to call when they are throwing something. I've had too many times where I throw a pipe bomb and just before it leaves my hand I see a flaming bottle just leave someone else's hand.

[François]

Agree with having a sharpshooter in the rear, mostly for smokers. AR or rifle can perform this role well -- AR will do better against unexpected hordes* and rifle can one-shot a smoker with a hit anywhere on its body, assuming they themselves aren't snagged before they can get a shot off.

Agreed. That said, the hunting rifle is best in the back if the team is in narrow corridors. If the team is in an open area, an AR guy is more useful. It would probably pay off if the riflemen can coordinate and switch places accordingly.

And of course, the worst place for a sniper to be is anywhere in the middle of the group, if only because the hunting rifle has by far the ugliest potential for friendly fire. Sure, a shotgun's spread will clip one of your mates every once in a while, but the hr will pierce a hundred zombies, two doors and a wall to headshot a friend. There are few feelings worse than being zoomed in to take a shot at a distant smoker or whatever, and then having another survivor's back literally fill your entire scope at the very instant you pull the trigger.

In fact, if you see a sniper who's not moving, give him a clear line of fire. There's a perfectly straight death line extending from the tip of his gun to the end of his field of vision and there's a good chance he can't see you at all unless you're literally crossing it. Think of the hunter rifle as projecting an invisible laser that will probably take out a chunk of your health bar if you touch it.

Well, that's kind of an exaggeration. And of course I'm not saying it's entirely or always your fault if I do shoot you. But still. Sniper gets to be in front, 'cause he can't see shit. Even firing over a crouched buddy is a risky venture while zoomed in. If you want to get a piece of the frontline, stay by my side, or shoot over my head.

And if I'm lagging behind or getting separated, don't be afraid to tell me. I don't always notice people moving on ahead; reduced situational awareness is one of the prices I pay for all the kills. Heh, remember when we were going down into the airport main hall? You guys were setting up shop at the top of the escalators, while I found myself tooling about on the ground floor wondering where everybody was, and I had to walk through like a million burning gas tanks to get back to you. So yeah, that was pretty much entirely my fault.

On an unrelated subject: taking out sitting witches. If you can organize at all, you never want anyone to have to shoot at her as she's moving across their field of vision. I think the best setup is to form on the sides of the sniper, who gets the first shot. That way everyone gets to focus fire on her as she more or less beelines for the sniper, instead of having to sweep their aim and trying to keep up with her.

Like this:

Code: [Select]

Shot Rifl Snip Rifl


            ^
            |
           |
           |
          |
          |
          |
          |
        Witch

rather than something like

Code: [Select]

          Snip


Rifl        ^
            |
Shot       |
          |
          |
Rifl      |
          |
          |
        Witch


[MadMAxJr]

Watch out for teams you know jumped from hardcore TF2 to L4D.

Code: [Select]

Z    Snip Snip Snip Snip    Z
 Z                                         Z
    Z                                  Z
                ^
         Z      |
               |             Z
               |      Z
       Z      |
            |            Z
          |
          |
        Witch


[MadMAxJr]

Finally got around to doing Dead Air (Yes, on single player, taunt if you must.)

The machine gun on the last part was actually well placed.  I adored how half the zombies run right through the fire in the pit in front of the gun.  The only zombies that came up from behind the truck were the boss zombies.

[François]

There's something I've never seen mentioned anywhere, so I don't know if it's common knowledge or legitimately obscure... Either way: tank projectiles can be destroyed in mid-air. I don't know if it can be done with hand-held weapons (doubtful), but I do it with the minigun all the time. You have to aim for the chunk as soon as it "spawns", and it still flies some distance beween breaking apart, but it's not hard to do if you're at long enough range. If you know the tank's aiming at you from reasonably far away, it's probably a better idea to just keep firing rather than leave the minigun and run for cover. That way you can resume your lead-spewing as fast as possible.

[Catloaf]

I just bought it from BestBuy, as Steam refuses to let be buy anything from them (they say it's the credit card's fault, the credit card company says it's steam's) 24 motherfucking failed attempts to purchase since October!!!

YOU OWE ME AT LEAST $10 BUCKS STEAM!!! I TRIED TO PREORDER AND YOU WOULDN'T LET ME!  I TRIED TO BUY IT WHEN IT CAME OUT AND YOU WOULDN'T LET ME! WHY DON'T YOU WANT MY MONEY DIRECTLY!?! 


... There should be an angry Jew emote for irritating money situations.

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Use your credit card to buy a Visa gift card.

[Saturn]

Watch out for teams you know jumped from hardcore TF2 to L4D.

when i play tf2 its more like this (pretend the zombies are demomen and the witch is a spy)

Code: [Select]

Z    Snip Snip Snip     Z
 Z                                         Z
    Z                                  Z
                ^
         Z      |
               |             Z
               |     MSat Z
       Z      |
            |            Z
          |
          |
        Witch


[Smiler]

I only wanted to help you. 

[Catloaf]

One Single player match I played, Louis was given SUPER AI.  He killed basically all the hunters, boomers and smokers before any human player would've been able to see them (other side of wall/thick layers of leaves) and then was absolutely useless as the rest of them were on the Tanks, which apparently, on single player, ONLY target you.  He then gets on the boat and sits there as Me and the idiot AIs are killed by Horde, a Tank, and several Boomers and Hunters.

I hate him now.

[Saturn]

<Louis> HA HA THE BLACK GUY DIDN'T DIE.

[Kazz]

Best way to get rid of the Witch is to run up to her with the auto-shotgun and shoot her in the face a lot of times.

This also works on hunters, smokers, boomers, tanks, normal zombies, and teammates.