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Author Topic: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design  (Read 72501 times)

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Brentai

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #280 on: September 14, 2010, 04:17:08 PM »

Serious Sam too.  The default revolvers have a reload time to offset that they have infinite ammo, a good fire rate, and pinpoint accuracy.  Also because they are revolvers.

Yes, he has 12 shots.  Shut up.
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Frocto

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #281 on: September 14, 2010, 05:24:56 PM »

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"And it is because they have fallen prey to a weakened, feminized version of Christianity that is only about softer virtues such as compassion and not in any part about the muscular Christian virtues of individual responsibility and accountability."

Mongrel

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #282 on: September 14, 2010, 05:51:40 PM »

I mainly suggested a cooldown because I thought it was some kind of energy weapon/sci-fi lazar gun (that's where an ammo clip and reload sequence) would be counter-intuitive), but there are WWII games that also feature cooldown (in addition to reloading). Also functionally unlimited (i.e. a gigantic ammo reserve that is finite, but would never be delepeted in normal gameplay) is different from truly unlimited. Clips are still 100% intuitive and make complete sense if the ammo is only functionally unlimited.

I haven't played Gunbound, but I thought it had some sciency guns? If not, oh well.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #283 on: September 14, 2010, 05:57:27 PM »

I haven't played Gunbound, but I thought it had some sciency guns? If not, oh well.

Gunbot, not Gunbound.
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Mongrel

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #284 on: September 14, 2010, 06:04:18 PM »

Ahahaha whoops.
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Büge

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #285 on: September 14, 2010, 06:13:54 PM »

I'm telling you guys: pew pew pew.
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Brentai

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #286 on: September 14, 2010, 06:24:30 PM »

Pretty sure Japan made that game about 6 years ago only without the Korn soundtrack.
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Classic

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #287 on: September 14, 2010, 07:20:28 PM »

I mainly suggested a cooldown

Huh, I just realized I was using "cooldown" to mean the period during which a character ability is unavailable for use. Which made the difference between heat dissipation and clip changing a weird thing to discuss. Oh well.

I do kind of want to see a Mega Man Legends-like where instead of having an absolute limit to your continuous fire, you have a continuously cooling heat guage...
But maybe I should just shut the fuck up and play a Mechwarrior game.
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Mongrel

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #288 on: November 25, 2010, 05:02:04 PM »

What I learned from playing FarmVille - so you don't have to

Quote
In my opinion, FarmVille is quite a crappy game with zero to no Fun game play and a horrible user interface, but it is full of clever compulsion-inducers and viral mechanisms that keeps you playing, and incentivizes spreading the game to friends in ways that push hard up against – but usually don’t overstep – the treshold of feeling like you’re outright being paid to spam other people .

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Eponymous Bosch

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #289 on: November 25, 2010, 05:34:22 PM »

Farmville gives my parents something to do online for a change, so I can't completely hate it.  Then again, they always seem to be scowling while they play it, so I don't know.  And there's nothing more surreal than hearing a screaming argument where someone says "I just needed to do something on fucking Farmville!"

I'm pretty sure I heard one of them talking about how they recieved an egg that contained a full-size hot air balloon once.  That seems like a bit too much whimsy for a couple of southern Baptist Evangelicals, but what do I know?

My dad's also started getting into Frontierville which seems to be the same, only with combat, now. So basically Diablo!  I caught him planting peanuts yesterday for almost five minutes.  He told me they had to be done now because it'd take three weeks for them to grow.  I asked if this was game-time or real-time and he just sighed and said "I don't know."

It was nearly the exact tone of voice and look of despair he had when he used to talk about paying off his student loans.
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Zaratustra

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #290 on: November 25, 2010, 08:15:31 PM »

Real-time. Yes, every time you play Farmville, you set yourself a task to do in a day, three days or one week. And when you harvest, you can plant again. It's just one of the many joyful ways Farmville controls your life.

Other tricks:

- The game NEVER FUCKING ENDS. You could level to level ten million if you cared to.
- Gauges and meters are constantly going up. You're always just about to win a level or gain a new pink pig or whatever the shit.
- Frontierville adds "energy" - you get an energy point every fifteen minutes and there's a cap of like 20 energy points. So, if you don't play every five hours, you are LOSING PRECIOUS POTENTIAL ENERGY POINTS.
- Frontierville also adds "sets" of five items that give prizes. The trick is, the four first items drop pretty easily. The fifth almost NEVER drops.
- The game ropes you into getting all your friends to play it, and ropes all your friends to keep reminding you to replay it to RECEIVE GIFTS and GIVE GIFTS in a neverending double-ended pyramid scheme.

The worse thing is all the game devs that think this is incredible genius and are rendering the whole thing into BOOKS to make as many games in the same style as possible because they're POPULAR and therefore GOOD. Nevermind that right now for each successful casual shovelware there are twenty games that are crappy AND unpopular.

Zynga has reduced game developers to fucking marketers. Or worse. Drug pushers.

 :fuckyou:

Detonator

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #291 on: November 25, 2010, 09:36:14 PM »

Real-time. Yes, every time you play Farmville, you set yourself a task to do in a day, three days or one week. And when you harvest, you can plant again. It's just one of the many joyful ways Farmville controls your life.

Other tricks:

- The game NEVER FUCKING ENDS. You could level to level ten million if you cared to.
- Gauges and meters are constantly going up. You're always just about to win a level or gain a new pink pig or whatever the shit.
- Frontierville adds "energy" - you get an energy point every fifteen minutes and there's a cap of like 20 energy points. So, if you don't play every five hours, you are LOSING PRECIOUS POTENTIAL ENERGY POINTS.
- Frontierville also adds "sets" of five items that give prizes. The trick is, the four first items drop pretty easily. The fifth almost NEVER drops.
- The game ropes you into getting all your friends to play it, and ropes all your friends to keep reminding you to replay it to RECEIVE GIFTS and GIVE GIFTS in a neverending double-ended pyramid scheme.

The worse thing is all the game devs that think this is incredible genius and are rendering the whole thing into BOOKS to make as many games in the same style as possible because they're POPULAR and therefore GOOD. Nevermind that right now for each successful casual shovelware there are twenty games that are crappy AND unpopular.

Zynga has reduced game developers to fucking marketers. Or worse. Drug pushers.

 :fuckyou:

So Farmville is an MMO that's been specifically boiled down to its most basic, addictive qualities.  I guess this has forever tainted the formerly pure medium of Facebook games.

If only the game was about killing rats and required a moderately-powered PC to play, then it would be good.

Yes, I'm being a jerk, but I'm just pointing out that using "tricks" to get your players addicted to your game is hardly new or shocking.  We might as well go back in time 5 years and start trashing WoW.
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Eponymous Bosch

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #292 on: November 25, 2010, 09:41:28 PM »

At least they're not using memes in their game--  Well, no, I think I saw a Double Rainbow something or other in frontierville.

Gaia Online was essentially the same (basic carrot on a stick gimmick, shamelessly using memes) but at least it had the eroticism of playing with dolls (?) and the forums while you play.

I used to go there and I distinctly remember a thread where a girl claimed a shark bit off her vagina.  That was the exact wording: "off."  Of course it didn't happen, but then it's like...

What if it did?
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patito

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #293 on: November 25, 2010, 09:41:39 PM »

Except the whole game consists of tricks? Basically people are boiling down their games to that in an attempt to mimic the success of farmville.

It would be like if WoW started adding even more tricks to their game instead of doing what they are doing now.
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Classic

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #294 on: November 25, 2010, 09:53:12 PM »

Wait, I'm still confused, what's the difference between a "trick" and "addictive gameplay"?
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Lottel

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #295 on: November 25, 2010, 09:59:40 PM »

Except the whole game consists of tricks? Basically people are boiling down their games to that in an attempt to mimic the success of farmville.

It would be like if WoW started adding even more tricks to their game instead of doing what they are doing now.

...Adding more tricks?
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Detonator

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #296 on: November 25, 2010, 10:02:22 PM »

Except the whole game consists of tricks? Basically people are boiling down their games to that in an attempt to mimic the success of farmville.

It would be like if WoW started adding even more tricks to their game instead of doing what they are doing now.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

People see a wildly successful game and try to imitate it.  Most of them fail.  All the reasons I've seen to hate Farmville seem pretty shallow to be honest.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #297 on: November 25, 2010, 10:31:54 PM »

Farmville and other games that people have actual grounds to compare to Skinner boxes strike me as unethical, because at no point during development is player enjoyment considered a priority. At least, if quotes from Marc Pincus can be considered indicative.

Whether or not people are entertained by it is kind of immaterial if the point wasn't to entertain in the first place, especially if it's ostensibly an entertainment product.
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...but is it art?

Kayin

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #298 on: November 26, 2010, 12:07:41 AM »

Addictive gameplay can be quite possibly good, while tricking people into playing is always kinda weak. I could discuss this at length, but I'll sum it up simply.

Do WoW developers actually play WoW on the spare time? Absolutely.

Do Farmville developers actually play Farmville in their spare time? Hell no.

Thats the simplest way to tell the game is evil.
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Friday

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Re: Unforgivable Sins of Game Design
« Reply #299 on: November 26, 2010, 12:10:18 AM »

does ryu haduken in his spare time? absolutely.

does he mash out dps? hell no.
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