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[Royal☭]

There is a significantly important bill working its way through Congress right now, The Employee Free Choice Act.  In short, it would do away with the secret ballots that employers can demand if workers seek a Union.  It also imposes civil penalties on any company that fires or violates the rights of someone who is trying to form a union.  In short, the normal bully tactics that companies use to prevent unions would be done away with.  In addition, states would no longer be allowed to be "Right to Work" states, thus empowering Unions again.

Currently there is a grassroots campaign in support of the bill.  Dropped my signature yesterday, and am planning to right a letter to Obama and Harry Reid concerning my support for the bill.

"The REALITY is the Employee Free Choice Act Helps American Workers and their Families"

Getting Congress to pass this bill is imperative, as labor unions are the corner stone of a progressive country.  And it because of this, I expect that big businesses and conservatives are going to be pouring a ton of money into anti-card check campaigns.  The best way to combat this is to spread the word about card check and to educate people on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlbfpzC_-I0

[Classic]

Bring back the trades guilds!

[Ted Belmont]

Hey, I went to a meeting about this a few months ago! Most of it was the typical "Walmart thinks unions are bad for the associates, because we prefer to let the associates speak for themselves" bullshit, but they also threw in some fear mongering about how unions would take all of our money, cause us to lose our jobs, rape our children, etc. Then they opened the meeting up for questions. After three questions, the slimy HR guy(seriously, this guy looked like he walked right off a FOX News set) realized that the crowd was turning on him, and ended the meeting suddenly, saying if we had any further questions, he'd be more than happy to talk to us individually.

I realize this is a personal anecdote, but it's no secret that Walmart uses intimidation tactics to prevent its workers from unionizing. Whether this law will stop that, or just cause them to be more subtle about it... 

[SCD]

You work at a walmart?

[Ted Belmont]

 

[Romosome]

This should be amazing to watch.

I can't even imagine what the battle over this is going to be like with Wal-Mart AND McDonalds throwing their entire weight against it, along with the rest of the lesser horde.

[Kazz]

My dad is, or at least was, anti-union.  He worked for a major car company back in the dizzle, and his experience with unionized workers was negative.  He described them as holding the company hostage, basically working all day with the implicit threat that they would all go on strike if they didn't get their way.  And "their way" involved being lazy, disrespectful, and doing as little as possible.

While I completely believe that this was the case (because my dad is many things, but not a liar), I generally disagree that unions are just plain bad or just plain good.  I believe that in the economic climate of the time, the workers didn't feel a sense of urgency or loyalty.  If the success of the workers was more directly tied to the success of the company, that would probably have been all the incentive they needed to work hard every day.

I also recall a story on NPR (one I've been unable to verify myself) a while back that said, in passing, that the starting wage of a general labor job at a major American car company is $40 an hour.  If that's true, it is ridiculous.  They're necessitating their own layoffs; the labor union is pricing its members out of their jobs.

All of that said, I support any organization that stands up to The Man.  Srsly, fuck that guy.

[Romosome]

I don't think unions are the best thing ever either; my first job was at a grocery store and I pretty much laughed at the idea of joining the union, even though I was cool with them.  Yeah, you want me to pay hundreds of dollars in dues for a job I am doing over the summer to earn cash, that I plan to quit fairly quickly?  Really?

But I also hate hearing all the tales of the underhanded and oppressive shit huge corps do to crush unions specifically so they can continue treating their employees like crap to cut costs.

[Classic]

The other problem I've heard with unions is that... Well, they're a power structure, with leaders and professionals involved. If these key positions aren't actually working in the interests of their constituency they can make life blow for employees just as badly.

I've only heard of this kind of dickery was through an acquaintance. On the internet. So, yeah, I wouldn't believe it was the norm even if I believed it at all.

[Transportation]

Was there any reason other than practicality/speed for getting rid of secret ballots for card checks? That seems to be the only obvious 'bad' thing about it. Also that is the only thing conservatives seem to complain about that makes some sense, so.

Edit: And yes I saw lots of stuff on the corporate manipulation of the current voting system but that doesn't really reflect on the merits of the secret ballot since we're passing new laws anyway.

[Royal☭]

After a bit more research, it doesn't get rid of secret ballots.  In fact, the "gets rid of secret ballots" talking point seems to be propagated by pro-business conservatives as a scare tactic.  What the bill actually does is provide a choice between secret ballot and majority support.

But the main issue with secret ballots is that they tend to favor employers, who have the advantage of coercion and bribes over a period of time to swing a vote their way.  Card check is more immediate and is enacted as soon as 51% are in agreement, no need to hold an election.  Also, card check is still confidential.  The names of the people signing the cards are kept secret, to prevent employer retaliation.

Alex Kayssar on the Huffington Post has a good look at the drawbacks and nature of the secret ballot.

[Arc]

I don't think unions are the best thing ever either; my first job was at a grocery store...

I'm not sure why but I've always hated unions.

Our entire generation is filled with ex-S Mart baggers who had a chunk of their meager paychecks taken out for a union they didn't think they'd ever need, since the job was disposable and they were young enough not to have a host of medical illnesses.

This being their introduction to a union, they gladly feel in the right for working sixty hour work weeks somewhere else, as (in their mind) the alternative is Joseph Stalin fucking their bank account raw.

[Mongrel]

The fact that ALL jobs have become more disposable since the 80's hasn't helped. So when members of our generation graduate, many of them see this experience repeated.

[Royal☭]

Damon Silvers, Associate General Counsel of AFL-CIO, has a pretty good piece about how anti-union business practices and a society of low-wages and high-spending contributed to the current financial crisis.  It's a good read, made none the less impacting because he wrote it in April.

[Mongrel]

Okay. Preamble: I want to be clear before what I say follows. I understand the importance of unions and have nothing against them. They are necessary for the survival of the individual worker against the corporation and have a long track record of achieving good things.

But there is a problem. Globalization.

In a world where all countries play on the same field, unionization in industrialized nations has left many supposedly leading nations unable to compete internationally, except through exploitation of countries much further down the ladder.

When a developing nation becomes strong enough to compete directly with a first-world nation, the developing nation's legacy of lower wages is used as a competitive advantage. This undermines efforts in both countries not just for unionization, but for any kind of worker rights or progressive workplace legislation. Perhaps these are just growing pains but in spite of Marx's pithy comments, at no point in human history has every nation been on equal footing. We have never "all ridden first class together".

At what point does unionization become dangerous to the country's economy as a whole? Is there even a way to calculate that on anything other than a company-by-company basis? Can a developed nation afford to throw its workers under the bus to try and fight a developing nation on its own terms or can it not to? Is the answer that developed nations must fight to keep their technological edge, their R&D capabilities and the ability to manage their existing wealth (all which results in additional efficiencies, reducing costs by means other than low wages)? Is this a do-or-die struggle in which the minute the developed nation falls behind enough there is no recovery? If your answer as "when the developing nation joins the first world, their workers will clamour for additional rights and compensation and it all balances out", I would direct you to look at autocratic nations (or one with very poor corporate oversight) like China, who are the poster children for the modern dynamic.

I mean, I don't know where I'm going with this... I don't have an answer. Just wondering.

For the record, I'm not some black-clad, mace-weilding, anti-globalization retard. Being anti-globalization is like being anti-roads or anti-plumbing. Also the problem isn't as clear-cut as I seem to make it sound above: Geography is still relevant - to a degree. Shipping costs for large items to factor into costs eventually and locally produced products can have a variety of competitive advantages over things produced in a third-world sweat shop. This is not as dire as it could be. But obviously it has a great and wide-ranging effect. If the answer is not "Run away and stick your head in the sand", what then is it? 

[Catloaf]

I also recall a story on NPR (one I've been unable to verify myself) a while back that said, in passing, that the starting wage of a general labor job at a major American car company is $40 an hour.  If that's true, it is ridiculous.  They're necessitating their own layoffs; the labor union is pricing its members out of their jobs.

This story was several years ago, yes?  Because the big 3 have not had that wage even attainable for "new tier" workers, who are replacing all possible workers and are paid far less for more hours than their peers.  The real thing draining them of their cash is the large amount retired people who had $60-$70 dollars an hour average who must be paid this wage that the are doing no work to earn. 

So, this shit is the product of good times in the past that were projected to never end or even stop getting better, because if they did, the companies would take an immediate loss from the share holders.  And we can't have that now can we!  So, basically, what I'm saying is, I blame Reagan. 

Also, I hate old people sometimes.  Hurry up and die*.

*This statement is addressed almost exclusively to the racist, obstacles to social progress.  The other old people should just give the young all their money.

[Arc]

In a world where all countries play on the same field

Same field, different rules. Trade imbalances have become dark comedy.

We have never "all ridden first class together".

Are we to assume those quotes equate to someone who was insane enough to utter such an ignorant statement?

At what point does unionization become dangerous to the country's economy as a whole?

When profit isn't being created. Further point being that rarely is unionization (if ever) the cause of such a predicament.

For the record, I'm not some black-clad, mace-weilding, anti-globalization retard. Being anti-globalization is like being anti-roads or anti-plumbing.

Two bridges too far with that analogy.

Shipping costs for large items to factor into costs eventually and locally produced products can have a variety of competitive advantages over things produced in a third-world sweat shop.

Products larger than cars, and perishables. The rest, from sedans to chocolate, is packed onto trade lanes at this very moment.

[A²]

I don't think unions are the best thing ever either; my first job was at a grocery store...

I'm not sure why but I've always hated unions.

Our entire generation is filled with ex-S Mart baggers who had a chunk of their meager paychecks taken out for a union they didn't think they'd ever need, since the job was disposable and they were young enough not to have a host of medical illnesses.

This being their introduction to a union, they gladly feel in the right for working sixty hour work weeks somewhere else, as (in their mind) the alternative is Joseph Stalin fucking their bank account raw.

One year later, and my view's changed somewhat to "I don't hate them, but I don't like them." I hear too many stories of "The union fucked us" and just as many stories of "We're fucked without a union" to do much else other than go "They're just like any other corporation: Some are good, some are bad! Now let's go shoot pool and play poker!"

[Mongrel]

Same field, different rules. Trade imbalances have become dark comedy.

China's refusal to let the yuan float should be the world's greatest example of how economic laws do not always equate to scientific laws. "Hey we're just going to TELL you how much our currency is worth... and you're all going to go along with it!"

Are we to assume those quotes equate to someone who was insane enough to utter such an ignorant statement?

It's a Marx quote from one of his parables, so yeah.

Original: Marx is boarding a train with a friend. The friend declares "Look at that scum in the first class cabin! When the revolution comes, we'll all ride third class together!" Marx replies "You have completely misunderstood all my lessons. When the revolution comes, we'll all ride first class together!"

I suppose it was a nice sentiment, but... 

Products larger than cars, and perishables. The rest, from sedans to chocolate, is packed onto trade lanes at this very moment.

I wish I could find the link, but a number of heavy-yet-cheap items (usually with a large steel or cement component) that have been outsourced to China in the last few years have actually gone back to being manufactured in the US, due to high cost to remanufacture them as compared to the shipping costs. Granted the price of oil was the main driver there (it was actually an article linked to in a section on effects of rising oil prices).

Which also brings up another point. Our current hard times have actually reduced energy costs for the time being, but when prices eventually go back up, this will actually expand the globe, making trade more difficult. Electric cars notwithstanding, oil is still king for heavy long-haul transportation.

[Rico]

Would be in support of this but for the end to Right to Work states.  It ain't a fucking employee free choice if you have to take the payroll deduction to the union instead of taking it in the form of possibly slightly worse benefits.