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Poll

Nights You're Available For TF2?

Sunday
- 31 (15.3%)
Monday
- 27 (13.3%)
Tuesday
- 29 (14.3%)
Wednesday
- 29 (14.3%)
Thursday
- 26 (12.8%)
Friday
- 28 (13.8%)
Saturday
- 33 (16.3%)

Total Members Voted: 39


Author Topic: TF2 Nights  (Read 172814 times)

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Bongo Bill

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2100 on: April 18, 2010, 02:28:34 AM »

Yeah, you were the one kill that one got. Your spam still took out my son teleporter exit, though, so it wasn't a total wash.
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NexAdruin

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2101 on: April 18, 2010, 03:47:55 AM »

Bongo, do you build dispensers near your sentries? Dispensers make for good rally points and will encourage friends to stand around in a specific area (as long as it isn't too far out of the way) and defend that area (and any buildings therein).
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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2102 on: April 18, 2010, 04:21:18 AM »

There's always usually a pubbie who, when they see a dispenser, will go heavy and stand next to it until killed, firing their minigun at anything that moves.
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JDigital

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2103 on: April 18, 2010, 05:42:56 AM »

It took me ages to get the "10 kills with one sentry" achievement. The secret is to set up on a public 2fort server where the enemy has a really determined scout who won't learn he can't dodge the sentry. It also helped to set up the dispenser ahead of the sentry as a decoy, so demomen would make indirect fire at the sentry, see a building explode, and run into the sentry.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2104 on: April 18, 2010, 01:30:50 PM »

I build 'em, but they tend not to last long enough for anybody to rally around them.
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Doom

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2105 on: April 18, 2010, 01:43:00 PM »

DEAR [X] BONGO BILL [ ] MCDOHL,

IT IS [X] GOOD [ ] AWFUL TO HEAR FROM YOU [X] AGAIN [ ] FOR THE FIRST TIME.

I AM SURE THAT [ ] GAME IS TOO HARD [ ] DOOM'S A JERK [ ] SERVER IS UNFAIR [ ] GEO GOT KICKED [X] CLASS IS TOO HARD [ ] MAP SUCKS IS A VERY VALID AND DECISIVE ISSUE.

MIGHT I RECOMMEND YOU [ ] GIVE UP [X] PRACTICE [ ] READ THIS LENGTHY TRIBUTE TO CLASS STRATEGY THAT IS IGNORED.

[X] THANK YOU [ ] DEAL WITH IT AND I HOPE TO SEE YOU ON THE OPPOSITE END OF MY [ ] SASHA [X] NATASCHA IN THE FUTURE!

[X]BRO-FIST [ ] WE ARE ENEMIES NOW



[X]DOOM E. KINS [ ] MANFRED VON KARMA [ ] DR. DOOM [ ] DASH WORTHINGTON [ ] FAT CAT
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Bleck

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2106 on: April 18, 2010, 02:16:42 PM »

The secret to being a good Engineer is to not care when your shit gets destroyed.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2107 on: April 18, 2010, 02:19:52 PM »

I care about shit getting destroyed only insofar as it represents time during which there's a warm body on my team (me) that is doing absolutely nothing to stop the enemy. When I want to be useless, I pick Sniper or Demoman!
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Royal☭

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2108 on: April 18, 2010, 02:23:00 PM »

Engineer occupies that no man's land of my least played and most hated class.  It also happens to be the one class I totally suck balls at.  Solve that mystery, Internet Super-Sleuths.  

It's frustrating exercise in hoping the rest of your team grasps the concept of Gettin' Shit Done™ so that your base isn't demolished by every Demo, Soldier or Uber that prances past the front lines.  As such, the lack of "Pick Up and Charge Out and Be Useful" generates an endless wave of headaches for me.  I'll probably tolerate the class long enough to see if the update changes the experience, but I'm happy with playing Engineer Support Classes in the meantime.

Bleck

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2109 on: April 18, 2010, 02:36:53 PM »

I care about shit getting destroyed only insofar as it represents time during which there's a warm body on my team (me) that is doing absolutely nothing to stop the enemy.

An Engineer sans sentry is far from useless.

It's frustrating exercise in hoping the rest of your team grasps the concept of Gettin' Shit Done™ so that your base isn't demolished by every Demo, Soldier or Uber that prances past the front lines.

If the problem is 'all of my tightly clustered shit gets killed by two stickies', the solution is to not cluster your shit together! Dispensers should be put where teammates have easy access to them, sentries should be in places where they can take foes by surprise, and teleporters should be in a secret place. Very rarely will one single space count as all three of those.

Doom probably knows what he is talking about more than I do, though, when it comes to fungineerin'.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2110 on: April 18, 2010, 02:39:30 PM »

It's not that I'm useless because my sentry is down; it's that I'm useless because everything goes down before any of it helps my team in any way.
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Mothra

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2111 on: April 18, 2010, 02:41:07 PM »

I care about shit getting destroyed only insofar as it represents time during which there's a warm body on my team (me) that is doing absolutely nothing to stop the enemy. When I want to be useless, I pick Sniper or Demoman!

There's times when basically every class is useless, from when the Scout's just running around to when the solider's sitting for the next respawn. The engie earns his downtime tenfold for all the killin' he does respective to the other classes.

It's earned and you should enjoy taking your time with another setup while the rest of the team picks up the slack.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2112 on: April 18, 2010, 02:48:59 PM »

There's no killin' happening to make up for the downtime, though. The only downtime is waiting for respawn; the only killin' is if a wounded, fleeing enemy Scout carelessly runs behind our lines to try to escape. If he's not wounded, he usually manages to take out the building. Why am I not defending it? Because he killed me first.

It might be that I only pick engineer when every competent regular is on the other team. I haven't noticed that I habitually make that particular bad decision, but it's possible.
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NexAdruin

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2113 on: April 18, 2010, 03:33:47 PM »

First, let's consider sentry placement. Look at other engineers. Do you put your sentries in the same places as them? If so, stop. If not, start. Whenever possible, put your sentry somewhere where it will have cover. Behind a wall, a rock, a heavy, etc. At point A on Badwater, there are a few such areas (find them yourself, I'm not going to try to describe them here). Once you've found decent placements for that area, think about what makes those placements good and look for similar areas elsewhere.

How close are your sentries to everything else that you build? If everything is too spread out, you will have to choose between what to defend and what to let die. If everything is too close together, all of your shit will die at once (and you'll probably get caught in the same mass of sticky bombs).
How close are they to health pack locations? Putting a sentry near a health pack location means putting it in an area most frequently traveled by those that are already injured.
Where are your teammates, in relation to your shit? Put your sentry somewhere such that it can be defended easily without always being in the middle of the action. If you should die, you don't want to wait 12 seconds before your chance to run across the map while your team is too busy to go looking for your shit. By the same token, if your sentry is RIGHT AT THE FOREFRONT OF EVERYTHING, it's going to be taken out quickly because A) it's easy to spot B) It is an immediate problem that needs to be taken care of right now and C) splash damage from weapons aimed at everything else.

Where do you go once your shit is set up? Do you crouch behind the sentry and +attack with the wrench, hoping to heal it more quickly than it will die? Do you run halfway across the map to chase down scouts? Are you standing close by without being on top of the thing? Try these different methods of standing around at varying distances and see what works best for you.

Tips and tricks for a successful career:
1. Let your team know where your shit is. They can't help your burning sentry if it's so well hidden that nobody can find it. Try to make a rally point for your team without bunching everything together such that a Direct Hit can blow it all to hell.
2. You have ammo (quite a lot of it). Use it. Your sentry does not want to fight its assailants alone, and you shouldn't try to make it do so.
3. The buddy system!
>Good Buddies:
Heavy
Pyro
Engineer #2

>Bad Buddies:
Almost everything else (with the exception of demoman and soldier, possibly).

I hope this helps a bit. If it doesn't, maybe try watching some youtube tutorials on HoW 2 kIcK AzZ aS a EnGy.
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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2114 on: April 18, 2010, 04:03:18 PM »

For what it's worth, if you're setting up a farm, and a Pyro or Heavy runs over and sprays bullets everywhere to cover you, make sure to get your dispenser up asap so they have unlimited ammo to watch you.
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Makaris

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2115 on: April 18, 2010, 04:15:02 PM »

Engie is currently my most played class, so here are a few things I figured out along the way.

- On most maps, you should set up Teleporters first.  Your team will love you.

- If you want your team to hang around your location, build a Dispenser where it will be useful to them.  

- Often your structures will take longer to build than you have time for, so don't feel obligated to wack every thing you make to completion.  Often your presence will call attention to your intelligently placed sentry and its cover will be blown.

- Don't care about points, because you'll be handing the enemy team a ton when you are dropping lots of sentries, which if you are being aggressive may turn out to be quite a few!

- In general, don't rely on your team to watch your back.  Most of the time you'll be disappointed if you over-invest in a location.

- Be Persistent!  Like Kayin mentioned earlier, even if you can't rely on your team to protect your equipment, often times your opponents team won't self-organize themselves in such a way to take maximum advantage of the hole a skilled Soldier/Demo just opened up.  

- Don't take my stance to mean that you should be bullheadedly stubborn, because if your stuff is being blasted ALL the time it's likely that you're not building it in good spots.  Be persistent, but be flexible and creative, too.

- Don't be afraid to play engie on stages where the battles are very mobile, but also don't rely on it as a stable strategy.  Some of my best engineer moments were on maps like Fastlane.  Most of the time just build a surprise sentry or two, and then switch classes.  

- Be mobile.  Like I said earlier, as long as you keep your feet moving you'll find that metal is exceedingly plentiful.  Keep building sentries on odd locations that your opponents won't be expecting.  Often you'll get kills just on account that they don't know where the damage is coming from.  A engie with his shotty out and a sentry adding to his damage can bring a lot of pain.

- Along that line of thought, don't be afraid to mix it up in direct combat.  Due to the way your sentris damage applies to your crit%, you'll find that you do more crits on average than other classes, especially in melee.  An Engineer that doesn't afraid of anything can defeat some unexpected opponents.

- All building setups are situational.  Sometimes you want the dispenser within arms reach so that it can supply you with health and ammo while you tank your sentry.  Most of the time, doing that is a waste of time and resources.  Shadow Moses has a larger-than-average concentration of skilled Soldiers and Demos.  As explosions happen to be anathema to your equipment, investing a lot into closely-arranged stuff is folly.  

- A decent set up if you MUST have the security of a nearby dispenser is built your sentry at the farthest possible distance from the dispenser, where you can just barely wack the sentry with your wrench, and also just barely be in reach of your dispenser.  Build the Teleporter exit a small distance further, so your team can get to your posistion and help defend it.

-  And, most importantly, play drunk.  Or at least in a state of mind where frustration won't set in.  Honestly, if you are getting frustrated no amount of advice will aid you.  Same goes for any class, but Engie is particularly susceptible, given their reliance on a great many factors that are out of your hands, such as team composition and a fair amount of luck.  If all else fails, dance.  Others will join you and your engie rush will be glorious indeed.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2116 on: April 18, 2010, 05:03:19 PM »

All of your advice is quite sound, appreciated, and irrelevant to the scenarios that caused this little outburst. Common locations? One lucky kill, then it blows. Uncommon locations? One lucky kill, then it blows. Close to the enemy? One lucky kill, then it blows. Far behind their lines, one lucky kill, then it blows, only it got one level higher that time. Drop a teleporter during setup time and it's dead before anyone uses it. Drop a teleporter mid-round and it's dead before it even finishes building. The only place my allies seem to be rallying is directly in the enemy line of fire, or in locations that will be in their line of fire as soon as the payload rounds that next corner in ten seconds.

How I can be a virtual non-entity as a defense Engineer for three straight stages of Goldrush is a mystery for the ages. I want to like the class, but since I don't drink, I guess I'll have to look somewhere else to attain the promise of a first-person shooter where a robot does all the aiming for me. Where's the difficulty slider on this damn game?

Eh. I'm done. (I've been done. Just inertia keeping me going, really.)
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Lottel

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2117 on: April 18, 2010, 06:29:58 PM »

I hear you, Bongo. Some nights I too get the urge to let a robot shoot guys. Half of my nights end up like yours. Some of it is my fault, I am well aware, but a lot of times it's just I plant my sentry, start wacking it and along charges a pyro and FOOF! I'm dead and sentry didn't even get built. A lot of engineering is planning ahead. The rest is pure luck.
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Makaris

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2118 on: April 18, 2010, 06:55:59 PM »

Well, if it blows up after getting a kill, even just one, isn't that more than worth it?  It takes a fraction of the time to get the metal and build a new sentry that it does for an opponent to respawn and get to that location again.

A lot of it is luck, but there is also a lot you can do to push events into your favor.  Regardless, if you're looking to top the score board consistently and net tremendous amounts of kill for little effort, you're playing the wrong class.
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Kayin

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Re: TF2 Nights
« Reply #2119 on: April 18, 2010, 07:01:51 PM »

Regardless, if you're looking to top the score board consistently and net tremendous amounts of kill for little effort, you're playing the wrong class.

*queue Soldier comment from Makaris*
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