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Monday

27 (13.3%)

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29 (14.3%)

Wednesday

29 (14.3%)

Thursday

26 (12.8%)

Friday

28 (13.8%)

Saturday

33 (16.3%)

Total Members Voted: 39

[NexAdruin]

Just undo the fire nerf, or drop it to -10% instead of -20%.

[Makaris]

it must be sticky jumping

Cause that is defiantly the point I was making.    Basically, there is no problem with the Demo being strong.  But the Pyro needs some well-thought out buffs to bring him up to snuff, given the sort of game the Pyro was made for isn't the game we have today.

Do I need to add a TLDR to that post or something?

[Defenseless Cow]

Basically, the pyro needs something that encourages and makes flanking easier without encouraging running forward and holding down the mouse button.

This is harder than it sounds.

[Zaratustra]

The developers didn't expect sticky jumping to be so versatile and they didn't expect the pipebombs to be so easy to use. This is the only reason that could possibly explain them doing twice as much damage as a rocket.

Basically, the pyro needs something that encourages and makes flanking easier without encouraging running forward and holding down the mouse button.

This is harder than it sounds.

Just make him move slower when the flamethrower is on.

[Kayin]

[Makaris]

well, yeah.  At this point, the Pyro is probably a lost cause.  Valve certainly isn't going to be using their resources to the utmost in order to balance a three year old game.  A better poofer is probably all we're going to get.

[Mongrel]

Am I the only person who really doesn't care if stupid idiots W+M1ing remain in the game?

I mean, several of you have already pointed out that even a mildly skilled player can beat a HURRDURR PYRO, and the buff the Heavy just got goes a long way towards increasing his chances of survival.


Anyway... you know the saddest thing? They finally had the flare gun at a point where it was playable - and then they killed it dead. THANKS VALVE.

[Makaris]

I agree with you mongrel.  I don't honestly see much of a reason to target noobie W+M1 people unfairly in such a way.  No matter what you do they aren't going to be very good, so might as well let them have some fun, no?

[Brentai]

well, yeah.  At this point, the Pyro is probably a lost cause.  Valve certainly isn't going to be using their resources to the utmost in order to balance a three year old game.

Uh, kay.  Can someone have told Valve that before they attempted it?

[Mongrel]

Yeah. I remember when this game offered a few occasional Grand Thrill Rides to the unskilled.

I've seen this happen before with other games that are regular patched/updated/expanded. A philosophical debate starts up about how much luck/ease-of-use is appropriate and how much skill is appropriate. More often than not, the "skill" crowd slowly wins out over time, usually to the detriment of the game's original design.

I understand the idea and the appeal behind making a game into a chess-like match where only TRUE BRO PROS win. But luck is important to a game designer, because it sometimes allows idiots to live the dream. Skill players find this immensely frustrating because for them it's all about who "deserves" to win.

The main problem happens when you realize that the most skilled players of ANY game will always form only a small percentage of the player base. Those rare moments of glory are what sustain a huge portion of a player base's interest.

It's anecdotal as fuck, but I know quite a few game designers and have been involved in my fair share of design consulting. Let me tell you, the smartest game designers hate skilled players like nothing else. Not because skilled players break systems (they do and it's annoying, but this is expected and normal), but because skilled players bitch like nobody business (it's much harder to rebut a world champ's encyclopedic arguments than some grammar-free bonehead's blather, and the OBSESSED crowd has a longevity most casuals can't remotely match) and have a rock solid assumption that that play skill = design skill. Eventually, these people eventually wear the designers down (or even replace them) and the game goes in the crapper.

For my money, I prefer to have a fair dash of luck or ease-of-use in my games, for a bit of a different reason: Life is unfair. Frequently. To me, the mark of the most skilled player is not just winning in a mythical 'perfectly balanced' construct, but in shit situations where everything has gone pear-shaped on you. Sometimes you do it with pure skill, sometimes you get a little luck of your own at the last crucial minute, but either way it is glorious.

  Stuff.

[Zaratustra]

apparently the crappy flamethrower now REQUIRES SKILL TO USE

by this logic cutting damage of all weapons by half would make them be more skillful

[Brentai]

(t mongrel)

That would be a valid point on the assumption that you actually expect an influx of noobs.  I think it's more that Valve's trying to foster some sort of Counter-Strike effect here, where it's 12 years later and oh god people are still playing on de_dust what

I have no idea why that's important, but Valve probably has the answer buried somewhere under its heavy sacks of money.

[Mongrel]

Whether you're right or wrong, it's still important to note that the very fabric of the game screams that it's supposed to be the one major FPS that's (supposedly) friendly to the non-hardcore.

[patito]

It's still pretty friendly, at least you can't really die instantly most of the time unless you fall into a sticky trap, sniper or you are playing spy.

They did fix the afterburn in the flare gun to the old 10 seconds, and hitting people on fire with it still does minicrit damage, too bad being on fire from the flamethrower is still a joke and doesn't really last long enough, setting people on fire and them pelting them with the shotgun works well enough.

Also, to be fair the backburner now effectively plays the way the pyro was originally designed, even better since you have crits. And if the enemy team has few soldiers and demos then it seems like a valid choice.

[Mongrel]

Say, what's the noise on skilled players whoring fire+axetingusher now?

I mean, before, that was a rather silly way to get kills since just streaming fire nearly or as effective, but didn't require a lighting weapon-switch. Basically, it meant you were just showing off.

Now, the crit-axe might well be a worthwhile main strategy to anyone who wants to use the poofgun and who can reliably pull off those axe-kills. The only problem is the reduced burn time.

[patito]

Crit axe was always better than just fire, especially on heavies since they are likely to turn around in an instant and kill you. It's not a skill thing, it's a common sense one.

[Mongrel]

I suppose, but it was a debateable point before (I did see the occasional argument against it from some strong pyro players). Now it seems to be the only effective option remaining.

[patito]

Well, fire was more effective than the axtinguisher if you were burning a group of players, now in those situations you're pretty much screwed as a pyro.

[Makaris]

It was an HP thing.  A light class you are welcome to just flamethrower and kill them in moment, but the higher HP classes were much easier and safer to kill with the Flame/Axtinguisher combo.  

And Patito was rocking the Backburner a fair bit, so it seems that if you wanna be a traditional pryo, that's your way to go for now.

edit:  as a side note about the Pyro's new damage;  I was trying to destroy a level 1 teleporter that was being repaired on the other side by an engineer.  not sure how fast the engie responded by I went from full ammo to ~40 before it went down, at point blank range.  Wowzers.

Also, they really need to fix the Spy.  I've been doing some of my best Spy work irregardless of the bug as of late, but still, it's annoying as hell.  Me and Yeoz during Cashworks were spotting spies at great distances for no real good reason other than their invisibility glitching.

[Mongrel]

Oh god... anybody else having massive issues with VAC kicking you off? It seems I can't stay connected to SM for more than 2-3 minutes before Steam boots me off.

I haven't changed a damn thing on my system and followed all the basic instructions on the Steam support page (verified that Steam, HL2, etc. are excepted, blah blah blah).

Starr's on the same connection and router and has zero issues.