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[Büge]

Most current PC gamers are into casual games or WoW.  WoW isn't a Windows exclusive, and most casual games are Flash-based and therefore platform-independent.

Guys like us are a minority.

That's strange. Whenever I go into a computer store or electronics store, they have gaming PCs on display. And if I'm buying computer parts, the clerks ask me if I'm going to use them for gaming. Then there's Alienware.

If we are a minority, I'd say we've got a pretty big money-wrapped dick to wave around.

[Kashan]

Most current PC gamers are into casual games or WoW.  WoW isn't a Windows exclusive, and most casual games are Flash-based and therefore platform-independent.

Guys like us are a minority.

That's strange. Whenever I go into a computer store or electronics store, they have gaming PCs on display. And if I'm buying computer parts, the clerks ask me if I'm going to use them for gaming. Then there's Alienware.

If we are a minority, I'd say we've got a pretty big money-wrapped dick to wave around.

Retail PCs are extremely low profit unless they're high-end gaming PCs.

[Detonator]

That's strange. Whenever I go into a computer store or electronics store, they have gaming PCs on display.

They are the most expensive and impressive, of course they want to show them off.  That's like noting how prominently car dealerships display sports cars, and assuming that a majority of people must drive them.

And if I'm buying computer parts, the clerks ask me if I'm going to use them for gaming.

Well, obviously.  Because the majority of people don't manually upgrade their computer.  And you're a twenty-something male.

Then there's Alienware.

See first point.

If we are a minority, I'd say we've got a pretty big money-wrapped dick to wave around

Yes, but that also entirely misses the point of the argument.  Gamers can spend thousands of dollars on new PCs, but they're not spending any more on Windows (which is what this discussion was about).

[James Edward Smith]

Here's one of the things I love about Windows:

Why the fuck does Windows Explorer still not allow you to view two directories at that same time? I mean, we are taking about a basic UI necessity for any file moving program of any flavor that has been included in any file browsing and moving program since Norton Commander. Have you ever seen even something like an FTP client that didn't have this most basic and obvious set up, cause I sure as hell haven't.

When is Microsoft gonna get off the retard bus on this?

[François]

When I need to do that I just open a second instance of Explorer. It takes about a second. Unacceptable?

[Rico]

Then you have to reposition it so both are visible, and if you ever alt-tab to something else chances are when you tab back one of your Explorer windows is going to be behind something.  Complaint is v. reasonable.

And, oddly enough, something that I've found Mac OS X to be even worse at because of the tendency for every single Finder keyboard shortcut to just change your current window instead of opening a new one.

[James Edward Smith]

When I need to do that I just open a second instance of Explorer. It takes about a second. Unacceptable?

I could probably type in this post in one window and then push the submit button in an other window. That wouldn't make the designing a message board UI like that a good idea though.

[Brentai]

If you're talking about actual Windows Explorer (the program that MS hides in the ass-end of the Accessories group so that you never try to use it) then it's pretty easy to just drag files and such into the directory view on the left.

If you're talking about the "let's make it like navigating the Internet that's not confusing at all" Explorer, then yes, it's a badly designed piece of wang that they experimented with in 98 and never bothered to remove or even stop using as a default.

(Although a quick peek shows that it's got a folder view too now.  That's what I get for not even bothering to look in ten years.  So, er, what are you complaining about now?)

[sei]

Geo is bitching that there's no retard-friendly, split view that uses only one UI window.  I think it's a lame complaint, in light of the folder view (View->Explorer->Folders) and being able to just open two damned explorer windows.  Pro-tip: Tap win+e to spawn a new one, in case anyone doesn't yet know this.  Also, if you're in C:\, for example, and want a separate window for Program Files (a sub-directory) you can right click the icon and choose "Open", which will spawn a new explorer window (though it won't keep the settings of the window from which you opened it) for that folder.  Just drag it to the side and you can see both at once.

There is some kind of conditional stupidity (at least on the version of XP I'm using).  If I select a folder and use shift+enter, if I'm using the folder view, it just navigates to that folder instead.  If I'm the folder view sidebar is toggled OFF,  shift enter will open a new explorer window up in folder view, showing that directory's contents.  The same goes for ctrl+double-click.  That's something else entirely, though.  Right-click->open is what most people are going to be using, anyway.

My laptop has been randomly dropping Es for about a year now.  Except sometimes one keypress will type a bunch of Es.  I ... I don't even know where to start.

Wlcom to my world.

Yes, but that also entirely misses the point of the argument.  Gamers can spend thousands of dollars on new PCs, but they're not spending any more on Windows (which is what this discussion was about).

Aaactually, Dell (and maybe some other companies) are charging EXTRA to have computers ship with XP (pro?) instead of Vista (home?).  A lot of games don't require DX10.  Vista tends to impose a resource drain in situations where DX10 isn't needed (and for certain quantities of RAM).  I tend to, perhaps mistakenly, correlate gamers with above-average computer proficiency.  I don't have concrete evidence supporting that gamers specifically are requesting it, but it seems safe to assume that the everyday user isn't opting to pay an extra hundred bucks to have a computer ship with yesterday's OS.

[Thad]

That's strange. Whenever I go into a computer store or electronics store, they have gaming PCs on display.

And the Apple Store puts Mac Pros with 32-inch Apple monitors on display, but if you think more people are buying those than iPods, you're an idiot.

If we are a minority, I'd say we've got a pretty big money-wrapped dick to wave around.

Well yes, we're the ones buying the high-dollar computers.  There are a lot of people buying cheap things and a few people buying expensive things.  This isn't some kind of huge revelation, it's basic economics.

If you're talking about actual Windows Explorer (the program that MS hides in the ass-end of the Accessories group so that you never try to use it) then it's pretty easy to just drag files and such into the directory view on the left.

If you're talking about the "let's make it like navigating the Internet that's not confusing at all" Explorer, then yes, it's a badly designed piece of wang that they experimented with in 98 and never bothered to remove or even stop using as a default.

(Although a quick peek shows that it's got a folder view too now.  That's what I get for not even bothering to look in ten years.  So, er, what are you complaining about now?)

He's talking about viewing two folders side-by-side.  Not just the folder icons, but the contents of the folders.

Tree view doesn't let you see the contents of the folder you're moving files to, is inadequate if you're copying both ways, and gets totally unwieldy as you go deeper into the hierarchy.

The funniest thing is that this is something I didn't even realize annoyed me that, in hindsight, totally does -- I shouldn't have to open a new window to copy files straight across.

Moreover, it inspired me to make a (very cursory) examination of my file browser, and it turns out I DON'T!  Under Dolphin, you just go to View -> Split View, and it does EXACTLY what Geo describes.  Thank you, Geo, for getting me to think about, and then immediately fix, this problem.

Anyway.  For those of you using KDE, Dolphin totally does this.  For those of you using Windows, I know there are third-party file managers; if anyone finds one that matches Geo's description, please share with the class.

[James Edward Smith]

Oh oh, I found one. It's called any file viewer not made by microsoft.

[sei]

For those of you using Windows, I know there are third-party file managers; if anyone finds one that matches Geo's description, please share with the class.

Okay.

[Thad]

Oh sweet, I love me some MC and should have figured there was a Windows port.

...For those less keen on keyboard navigation than I am, how does it do for drag-and-drop?

[sei]

lifehacker lists a couple other alternatives.  I'm now looking into something to give me tabbed explorer windows.

Speaking of stuff with tabs, I'm still enjoying console.

[Air]

So I've been on Puppy Linux for a few weeks, and after learning the ins and outs I have come to see why everyone enjoys Linux so much. The distro I have is a very Lightweight and fast type, so I get instant feedback when I click an icon or something. That might sound normal for a lot of you, but before I was on a bloated XP that hadn't been reformatted in 4 years, so it took a few minutes for my clicks to register. Also, since I had no OS disk, and didn't want to pay $200 for one I was SoL for reformatting.

Anyway, while I hate windows I have to keep it around for a few things, like Phantasy
Star Online Blue Burst, and so I can finally someday import all my old bookmarks back, but still Puppy Linux has given me a new love for my PC, and I think everyone should check out the live disk of it at least once.

[Thad]

I used to keep Puppy on a thumb drive.  It was a very useful tool to have around, but the bias toward people coming over from Windows was grating.  I've already expressed my irritation with programs being labeled by description instead of name -- I understand that it's useful for people who don't know what the fuck a Pidgin or a Gimp is, but I'm a power user and I want the option.  (Plus, if you know what Linux is, you fucking know what Firefox is, though that's a tangent -- and last I checked Puppy still used Seamonkey as its default anyway.)

And while the ass-ugly Windows 95 icon scheme it was using wasn't a deal-breaker, it WAS ass-ugly.  I understand the point is to make a tiny distro, so SVG's and full-color PNG's are out, but seriously, ripping off icons from Win95?  Ugh.

I also remember package management being a bit of a hassle.

Anyway.  I don't actually know if any of my complaints are still operative; I haven't tried Puppy in over a year.  (A quick glance at the website at least suggests the icons have been fixed.)

Sora, are you running any of the more advanced, optional stuff on Puppy, like KDE, say?  It's a lot more fully featured than the basic window managers that Puppy defaults with, but of course it's slower, too.  I assume from what you've said about XP (and the fact that you picked Puppy in the first place) that you're running and older hardware here.

Kubuntu's my Linux of choice.  I'm quite happy with it.  I like Puppy as something to stick on a thumb drive and carry around with me, but I wouldn't use it as my desktop OS.

[Air]

Yeah, it's still got Sea Monkey as a default. I installed FireFox 3 on mine though. Still haven't uninstalled Sea Monkey though.

The theme for Puppy 4's desktop looks really nice off the bat, but I decided to go with IceWM instead of JWM so that I could use Java programs, as JWM doesn't listen for keys being pressed and released in Java.

Don't even get me started on the packages though. Every single one of them I tried to install fucked my shit up so bad I had to reinstall. They really need to work on that.

I tried Koploxx (Probably spelled wrong) which ran KDE and it was really slow on live disk, so I didn't bother installing it. I don't remember exactly, but I think I'm on a Pentium 4 processor, and 512 ram. I got my PC back in 2005, a Sony Vaio desktop, if that helps.

I was going to try Kubuntu, but after trying the Ubuntu live disk and seeing how it was - slower than my 3 to 4 year old bloated XP install - I don't think I'll go anywhere near Slowbuntu distros. Well, it's probally not slow on a system with 2gig ram, but my PC is old, so I have no interest in distros that aren't trying to max on speed.

I have looked into Arch though I really want to try that, but I'm not good enough on Linux to really try for that yet.

On a side note: I tried installing puppy to a USB drive, but it wouldn't boot, which sucks. Also, I heard that the constant reading and writing an OS does to a USB drive wares it out really fast.

[Thad]

The theme for Puppy 4's desktop looks really nice off the bat, but I decided to go with IceWM instead of JWM so that I could use Java programs, as JWM doesn't listen for keys being pressed and released in Java.

Yeah, I always went IceWM too.

Don't even get me started on the packages though. Every single one of them I tried to install fucked my shit up so bad I had to reinstall. They really need to work on that.

Yeah, that was probably the most irritating thing to deal with.  Too bad they haven't fixed it.

Seems like there's gotta be a way to get apt running on it, though.

I tried Koploxx (Probably spelled wrong) which ran KDE and it was really slow on live disk, so I didn't bother installing it. I don't remember exactly, but I think I'm on a Pentium 4 processor, and 512 ram. I got my PC back in 2005, a Sony Vaio desktop, if that helps.

I was going to try Kubuntu, but after trying the Ubuntu live disk and seeing how it was - slower than my 3 to 4 year old bloated XP install - I don't think I'll go anywhere near Slowbuntu distros. Well, it's probally not slow on a system with 2gig ram, but my PC is old, so I have no interest in distros that aren't trying to max on speed.

I ran Kubuntu just fine on the baseline Dell P4 I had at my job a couple years back.  Inspiron?  Whatever their lowest-end, cheapest tower is.

Shit, I used to run Gentoo on an Athlon XP 1900+.  That sure got old after awhile.

On a side note: I tried installing puppy to a USB drive, but it wouldn't boot, which sucks.

I remember it took awhile for me to get that to work; don't remember what I finally did.

Also, I heard that the constant reading and writing an OS does to a USB drive wares it out really fast.

True, but IIRC Puppy's designed to mitigate that and only write to the drive at certain intervals.

The downside is that if, say, you lose power instead of doing a proper shutdown, you can lose data.

Er, I mean, moreso than would happen on a standard OS.

[Air]

The downside is that if, say, you lose power instead of doing a proper shutdown, you can lose data.

Er, I mean, moreso than would happen on a standard OS.

Yeah, though I haven't ran into any problems with java loss  when I have to hard-turn off my PC after firefox crashes -making it so iceWM stops responding, and making "poweroff" or "shutdown" unresponsive as well.

Know anything about Arch Linux? I hear it's good, but I don't wanna go through all the steps to making a live CD for it.

[Thad]

Yeah, though I haven't ran into any problems with java loss  when I have to hard-turn off my PC after firefox crashes -making it so iceWM stops responding, and making "poweroff" or "shutdown" unresponsive as well.

Can you ctrl-alt-F1 to console and kill it?

Failing that, if there's another computer in the house you should be able to SSH in.

Linux is stable as a rock.  X, not so much.

Know anything about Arch Linux?

No, sorry.