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Author Topic: I Don't Do Windows  (Read 50648 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #200 on: January 02, 2011, 09:40:39 PM »

Did you mean 2011 (or 2010) edition? 

Or is this just a comment that things have not advanced from 10 years ago?
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sei

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #201 on: January 03, 2011, 03:41:56 PM »

Typo. 2011. Ran into stupid, basic usability obstacles 10 years ago. Gave it another chance last night. Not touching that shit again for another 10 years. (This last bit is a lie, I may still VB Ubuntu to set up test services.)
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Angryoptimist

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #202 on: January 03, 2011, 06:37:51 PM »

Ran into stupid, basic usability obstacles 10 years ago. Gave it another chance last night. Not touching that shit again for another 10 years.
That's okay.  It's not for everyone.

I'll just be over here, doing cool stuff in Linux without you.

Like, I set up X to make any SIXAXIS or DualShock 3 controllers connected to the computer generate keys and mouse events for Minecraft:
Code: [Select]
Section "InputClass"
  Identifier "PS3MinecraftJoystick"
  MatchIsJoystick "on"
  MatchVendor "Sony|Sony Corp.|SONY"

  # Mapping for the SixAxis/DualShock3
  # Uncommented entries are currently unused
Option "MapButton1"  "none" ## Select
        Option "MapButton3"  "none" ## (Probably) R3
Option "MapButton2"  "none" ## L3
#Option "MapButton4"  "none" ## Start
#Option "MapButton5"  "none" ## Dir-Up
#Option "MapButton6"  "none" ## Dir-Right
#Option "MapButton7"  "none" ## Dir-Down
#Option "MapButton8"  "none" ## Dir-Left
#Option "MapButton9"  "none" ## L2
#Option "MapButton10" "none" ## R2
#Option "MapButton11" "none" ## L1
#Option "MapButton12" "none" ## R1
#Option "MapButton13" "none" ## Triangle
#Option "MapButton14" "none" ## Circle
#Option "MapButton15" "none" ## X
#Option "MapButton16" "none" ## Square
#Option "MapButton17" "none" ## PS-button
Option "MapButton18" "none" ## UNK
        Option "MapButton19" "none" ## UNK

#Option "MapAxis1"   "none" ## Left-stick X
#Option "MapAxis2"   "none" ## Left-stick Y
#Option "MapAxis3"   "none" ## Right-stick X
#Option "MapAxis4"   "none" ## Right-stick Y
Option "MapAxis5"   "none"
Option "MapAxis6"   "none"
Option "MapAxis7"   "none"
Option "MapAxis8"   "none"
Option "MapAxis9"   "none"
Option "MapAxis10"  "none"
Option "MapAxis11"  "none"
Option "MapAxis12"  "none"
Option "MapAxis13"  "none"
Option "MapAxis14"  "none"
# Option "MapAxis15"  "none"
Option "MapAxis16"  "none"
Option "MapAxis17"  "none"
Option "MapAxis18"  "none"
Option "MapAxis19"  "none"
Option "MapAxis20"  "none"
Option "MapAxis21"  "none"
Option "MapAxis22"  "none"
Option "MapAxis23"  "none"
Option "MapAxis24"  "none"
Option "MapAxis25"  "none"
Option "MapAxis26"  "none"
Option "MapAxis27"  "none"

  ####
  ####
Option "StartKeysEnabled"  "False"
Option "StartMouseEnabled" "False"
Option "DebugLevel"        "5"

# Map mouse to right stick axes 3 (l/r) and 4 (u/d) (mouse look)
Option "MapAxis3" "mode=relative axis=1.5x deadzone=5000" #My own sixaxis needs a deadzone this large.  Others might not.
Option "MapAxis4" "mode=relative axis=1.5y deadzone=5000"
# Map WASD to left stick axes 1 (l/r) and 2 (u/d) (movement)
Option "MapAxis1" "mode=accelerated axis=key keylow=38 keyhigh=40" # a=38, d=40
Option "MapAxis2" "mode=accelerated axis=key keylow=25 keyhigh=39" # s=39, w=25
# Map Start to Escape menu
Option "MapButton4" "key=9" # ESC=9
# also map Circle to escape, since it is used to quite out of menus
Option "MapButton14" "key=9"
# Make the PS button toggle all of this
Option "MapButton17" "disable-all"
# Map R1 to left click
Option "MapButton12" "button=1"
# Map R2 to right click
Option "MapButton10" "button=3"
# Map L1 to jumping (spacebar)
Option "MapButton11" "key=65" # SPACE=65
# Map L2 to 'sneaking' (left shift)
Option "MapButton9" "key=50" # LSHIFT=50
# Map Square to "b" (minecraft inventory menu key)
Option "MapButton16" "key=56" # b=56
# X cycles through rendering distance ("f")
Option "MapButton15" "key=41" # f=41
# Triangle drops stuff ("q")
Option "MapButton13" "key=24" # q=24
# Not doing anything with L3 and R3 yet...
Option "MapButton2" "none"
Option "MapButton3" "none"
# The D-Pad, on the other hand...
# (Using buttons instead of axes, as I don't know how it'll handle an unsigned axis)
Option "MapButton5" "axis=+zx" # Up
Option "MapButton7" "axis=-zx" # Down
Option "MapButton6" "axis=+zy" # Right
Option "MapButton8" "axis=-zy" # Left
# Hopefully, that'll cover control of the scroll wheel, so you can select stuff
EndSection
Didn't have to download any new programs or translators.  X already had a driver, 'xserver-xorg-input-joystick'.  First joystick->mouse+keys driver I've used that wasn't twitchy and didn't have appalling latency.

 :perfect:

Uh, all the other stuff I do on Linux that I think is cool, you probably wouldn't like though.  Like, a fully keyboard driven window manager and shell scripting everywhere.
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sei

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #203 on: January 05, 2011, 01:40:29 AM »

That sounds less painful than having to deal with DS3Tool on Windows 7 running in test mode to enable unsigned drivers. Personal experience. Tool was semi-inconsistent and it sends a PS button press and turns the fucking PS3 on when you USB-disconnect the controller.

I'm interested in the keyboard driven WM bit. The shell scripting thing, probably less so, since I tend to bang out ruby scripts to do stuff that might otherwise be done in bash. Going to be using linux for a lamp stack and some other development fuckaround.

If I wanted to make myself a bunch of shortcuts to spit into a term or alt+f2 in linux, where would the "correct" place be to put my symlinks? On Windows, the answer is roughly, "wherever the fuck you want, provided you update your PATH variable." On linux, I assume I should stuff it in a subdir of my home dir, but what's the step that's equivalent to appending that newly made directory to PATH?
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Angryoptimist

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #204 on: January 05, 2011, 04:10:54 AM »

That sounds less painful than having to deal with DS3Tool on Windows 7 running in test mode to enable unsigned drivers.
Actually, it gave me the fits, initially, because I hadn't known about InputClass going in.  Once I did, it all went very smoothly.

Personal experience. Tool was semi-inconsistent and it sends a PS button press and turns the fucking PS3 on when you USB-disconnect the controller.
Yeah, that happened to me as well (the controller turning on the PS3).  The PS button sends normal button presses, but there's definitely something else going on inside the controller as well.  I'm chalking this one up to wholy cross-platform DS3/Sixaxis weirdness.  (Didn't happen when I 'paired' it and used it with Bluetooth.)

I'm interested in the keyboard driven WM bit.
There's plenty of them to look at.  In addition to dwm, I know of stumpwm, ratpoison, and awesome.  That's just off the top of my head.  (awesome sucks, though--it's dwm without good sense.)

The shell scripting thing, probably less so, since I tend to bang out ruby scripts to do stuff that might otherwise be done in bash.
I dunno man... What you say here got me thinking, and I went looking for a Ruby shell.  If found one (rush)... but the regular bash/bourne compatible examples actually look cleaner and better to me.
To each his own, though.  If you don't like shell so much, maybe give rush a shot.  Lots of people have not-bourne-y, non-bash login shells--scsh (Scheme shell), clisp shell, emacs, you name it.  Well, maybe not 'lots' of people--but there are people that actually do this.

If I wanted to make myself a bunch of shortcuts to spit into a term or alt+f2 in linux, where would the "correct" place be to put my symlinks? On Windows, the answer is roughly, "wherever the fuck you want, provided you update your PATH variable." On linux, I assume I should stuff it in a subdir of my home dir, but what's the step that's equivalent to appending that newly made directory to PATH?
In Debian and Ubuntu, and, I'd expect, most distros one would encounter, the place to put a user's scripts, executables, or the symlinks that love them, is in ~/bin.  If ~/bin exists, it should be added to PATH at login, at least.  Alternately, if you want something system wide (that you don't need restricted to root user/group), /usr/local/bin is what you want.

Answering the other question:  adding whatever you want to PATH usually goes like so (using ~/bin as an example):
Code: [Select]
PATH=~/bin:$PATH

Though, naturally, this varies.  My own .profile has:
Code: [Select]
PATH=~/bin:"${PATH}"
inside an if that checks for ~/bin existing and being a directory, which is usually the sort of thing you'll find if you go looking in .profile, .bashrc, or wherever that would be kept.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2011, 05:44:50 PM »

...so by all accounts Wine runs most of my games pretty well now, but I tried running The Witcher and 3D acceleration, well, didn't work at all.  (2D shows up, 3D doesn't, so opening movies work fine and then the menu screen is text against a black background.)

Think I'm going to try switching back to fglrx, but thinking this might mean I hate myself.  Will let you know how it goes!
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Bal

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #206 on: January 13, 2011, 06:25:45 PM »

That's really too bad. The Witcher is pretty great.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #207 on: January 13, 2011, 07:00:48 PM »

...what the fuck is this?

I installed the proprietary driver, rebooted, and it worked.

I was not expecting that at all.

Even took "nomodeset" off my kernel parameters with no negative results.

Compiz doesn't work for some reason, which means I'm still stuck with KDE, but...things are going much better than expected.  Waiting for something terrible to happen.  I think I quit using fglrx the last time because of a memory leak making my system unusable; maybe that'll happen again.

(EDIT: Huh, restarted GNOME and now Compiz works.  Guess I'll fuck with GNOME for awhile now and see if I can get it to behave itself the way I want it to.)

As for Witcher performance: the menu colors are way brighter than they're supposed to be, but in-game looks all right; a little jerky at first and I haven't had time to play long enough to see if it gets better.  (The opening movie has ALWAYS rendered like hell for me, regardless of OS, hardware, or configuration.)  As noted on the compatibility page, healthbars don't show up, which could be a deal-breaker, but maybe I'll learn to deal with it.

Oh, and the music cuts out after a little bit for some reason; will see if I can figure out why.

The quest editor just crashes as soon as it loads, though, which is a pity.

EDIT 2: Witcher runs for shit when Compiz is enabled.  Figured I'd just work up a launcher script to disable Compiz, then run Witcher, then enable Compiz (plan on writing a script up anyway since I like mapping my 3rd and 4th mouse buttons to draw Geralt's swords), but then I found Compiz wouldn't start again after I'd disabled it.

I don't much like Compiz any-damn-way and only run it because it alt-tabs across workspaces and Metacity doesn't.

So it occurs to me, what the fuck, maybe I'll try GNOME Shell.

EDIT 3: Yow.  GNOME Shell hogs all my CPU, has some weird rendering shit, and doesn't handle Alt-Tab correctly either.  There's a newer version but the Ubuntu package is for Natty, which is still in alpha.  Think I'll have to give it a pass and either figure out a way to get Metacity to alt-tab across workspaces or go back to KDE.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #208 on: January 14, 2011, 10:01:58 PM »

Spent most of the day figuring out how to get my extra mouse buttons configurable in Ubuntu -- appears they're recognized out of the box but their numbering is reversed from what you'd expect, so that clicking the left thumb button goes forward in Firefox and the bottom right one goes back instead of the other way around.

Fucked around with xorg.conf and xinput a good bit and couldn't get them properly rejiggered; fucked with imwheel and I managed to swap some buttons around but couldn't quite get the syntax straight.  And anyway from what I've read imwheel was deprecated for HAL, which was deprecated for udev, which is broken in Maverick.  Jesus Christ.

Found a program called btnx that does the job, but it's buggy and unintuitive and has to be run as root.  Really imwheel looked like the best match for what I wanted since it could remap buttons based on the foreground program, but again, couldn't get it to work quite right.

Anyway, that sort-of settled, I gave The Witcher another shot but found that the sound still cuts out a ways in for no discernible reason (and no worthwhile debugging information in Wine's output), and at my monitor's native resolution it's unplayably slow even with all the video effects turned off.  Still pretty goddamned neat that it runs at all; quite nice that Wine proper appears to have passed Cedega in that regard.  Think my video card's most likely the bottleneck, either due to specs or the fact that ATI and Linux still don't really play nice together.

One thing left to try is a less resource-intensive window manager, as restarting my X session is still less hassle than rebooting into another OS.  Not optimistic that'll work, though.

So it's probably back to Windows for gaming, but I'm still pretty fascinated by the whole experience here.  Wine's come a long way.  Pity it's so hard to remap mouse buttons, though.

EDIT: Huge performance increase when run under Openbox instead of KDE.  Still slower than Windows (I think -- the date on my last save suggests I've never actually played The Witcher since buying this monitor.  Given that Dragon Age and ME2 run fine on it, though, I think it's safe to assume Witcher does too), but might be playable -- can't tell if I keep losing because of performance or because I saved right before a bitch-ass hard fight.

Music still cuts out after about a minute too.

Openbox seems kinda neat, though; think I might give LXDE a shot.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #209 on: March 28, 2011, 11:31:34 AM »

I've been alpha-testing the next version of Ubuntu, and I'm finding I really like the new desktop, Unity, quite a lot.  The main problem with it is its own newness -- there's a lot of shit that can't be configured, or at least can't be configured EASILY.  Of course, it took KDE 4 several point-releases to settle in, so maybe Unity will do that.  Even if Shuttleworth continues with his Jobsian "No, you're going to use your desktop the way *I* want you to" approach, I expect we'll still see things like the ability to add things to the Applications menu without hacking friggin' text files.

GNOME 3: Ubuntu is not using it.  There is a third-party repo providing packages, and I would sure like to test them but gnome-shell crashes every single time I run it.

From what I have seen, there are a lot of neat ideas and reexaminations of conventional design wisdom, but the GNOME devs are once again showing a certain amount of arrogance and resistance to suggestions from their users, a kind of "We read in a paper that you don't need a minimize button, you'll get used to it no matter how you've been using your computer for the past 20 years."  For those of us who remember when GNOME 2 first came out, it sounds an awful lot like the Spatial Nautilus debate all over again.  Remember Spatial Nautilus?  Neither do the GNOME devs.
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sei

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #210 on: March 28, 2011, 02:08:59 PM »

So how is youtube fullscreening working out for you people on Ubuntu? Seems to be crashing the flash plugin.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #211 on: March 28, 2011, 10:33:15 PM »

Works about as well as always.  Adjusting the volume from the keyboard still kicks me out of fullscreen, and sometimes it hangs and I have to alt-tab back to the browser and close the tab.  Doesn't work very well but I'm not getting any crashes.
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sei

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #212 on: March 29, 2011, 12:50:34 AM »

I can only get some (not all) videos working on my sister's computer. Issue is apparent in both Chrome and Firefox (and thus my assumption that it's not the browser's fault).
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #213 on: April 01, 2011, 05:03:03 PM »

Natty in beta, which somehow doesn't work as well as it did in alpha.

The Reg has a review which pretty much reaches the same conclusion I did (Unity's going to be awesome in about two years when they finish it) but goes into a lot more detail.

I'm back on KDE now, because since the beta upgrade all the other desktops error out immediately at login.  This is a step down from two days ago, when only the unsupported GNOME 3 did.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #214 on: April 02, 2011, 03:41:05 PM »

Oh hey, GNOME 3 finally working.

Initial thoughts:

It's pretty, it's clean, and it's got enough in common with Unity that I think it's a little silly that there was enough of a schism for an Ubuntu/GNOME divorce.

Graphics acceleration is, so far, working flawlessly for me.  I haven't used Mutter long enough to form a strong opinion on it, but my initial reaction is that I like it a fuck of a lot better than Compiz.

It's funny, given the attention to reducing the amount of wasted space onscreen (things like launchers, the taskbar, the Applications menu, and the workspace switcher are all on a separate interface that toggles when you hit the Start/Super button), that there's still a big dumb useless goddamn bar at the top of the screen, emptier than ever.

You know what?  I could describe the huge amount of shit at the top of my screen, but a picture is worth the proverbial thousand words.



What the fuck is that shit?  Why in God's name do I need 6 rows for that?

I assume GNOME's probably going to follow Unity's (well, Apple's) lead and combine the two titlebars(!) and menubar into a single bar, but for now it just looks sloppy, especially given the emphasis they've put on not cluttering the rest of the screen.  Somebody want to explain what the point is of saving space by removing Minimize and Maximize buttons if you're just going to replace them with Giant Fucking Empty Gray Second Titlebar?

(EDIT 2: Oh, and the Applications Menu is a goddamn mess that just shows all your applications in one window, unsorted, with the potential to narrow them down by search but no way to categorize them.  I assume that will also change and you'll be able to browse by category like in Unity.

EDIT 3: And for some damn reason most applications show up twice, once with a nice crisp hi-res icon and once with a shitty blurry low-res one.  Oh, and also you still can't set Ctrl-Tab as a shortcut keystroke in GNOME Terminal or Nautilus.)

Also, if you squint to read the tabs in that screenshot, you may notice that alt-tab does not seem to be enabled out of the box.

Fortunately, that second tab offers a solution: hacking fucking gconf, hooray!

(EDIT: That page is either bullshit or outdated; you can enable Alt-Tab in the regular control panel.  So, disregard.  In fact, it even lets you tab across desktops, my preferred method.)

(EDIT 4: But it's awkward for alt-tabbing between different windows in the same app.)

(EDIT 5: And the window for assigning keyboard shortcuts is so tiny that most lines are cropped, eg "Move between windows of a...", "Move between panels and th...", "Move between windows imm...".  There are no scrollbars and it cannot be resized.)

So yeah, it IS another example of the GNOME devs ramming some UI theory they read in a paper somewhere down all their users' throats against protests.  Which fortunately means it'll probably be fixed a little later down the line.

But as far as UI paradigm shifts, this actually is a pretty neat one and, most surprisingly, I'm finding it stable and zippy as hell.  Some shit may still be missing, but it's a lot more complete than Unity is, and a lot more complete than KDE 4.0 was.

There's a lot to like here about both the frontend and the backend.  I'm going to be playing with this one for awhile I think.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #215 on: April 05, 2011, 06:19:31 PM »

Alt-Tab is one of those things where I can see what they're trying to do and it's a neat idea but the execution is a pain in the ass.



See, it's got the programs in one row and the windows within each individual program in a second row, underneath.  I can see this as a potentially neat idea -- not having to tab past 9 Firefox windows if I don't want to open up Firefox.  (Did they crib this from OSX?  I know OSX's Cmd-Tab behavior tabs between programs and not windows; is there a way to tab between windows within a program in OSX?  Because if there is I don't know it.)

Implementation is awkward for a couple reasons.  Mainly it involves extra keypresses.  You can expand the second row using the arrow keys and then continue Alt-Tabbing, but I don't like that because it requires me to move my right hand (which is either on the home row or the mouse, never hovering over the arrow keys).  Or, you can set a second key combination for moving between windows -- default is Alt-`, which is convenient for its proximity to Tab, but it's actually a bit of a pain in the ass to move your finger between Tab and `; I'm considering mapping it to Alt-Q since that's an easier reach and a fairly unlikely key combination to conflict with anything else.

But then the theory of separating out programs versus windows is really irritating in practice.  A bit ago I was trying to tab back and forth between Firefox and a non-maximized LibreOffice window; I wanted to be able to see what was in the browser while I worked on a document.  Trouble is, when I Alt-Tab from Firefox to LibreOffice, it doesn't just bring up the last LibreOffice window I was using, it brings up ALL my LibreOffice windows.  Now, if I Alt-Tab from Firefox to LibreOffice and THEN Alt-` to the specific window I want, then that doesn't happen, but that's extra keystrokes for no good damn reason.

And while it's nice that you can Alt-Tab across workspaces, the implementation is irritating.  Let's say I'm working in a Firefox window on Desktop 3 and want to type something into my terminal on Desktop 1.  Okay, fine.  I hit Alt-Tab, enter my command, and hit Alt-Tab again -- and instead of bringing me back to the window I was just in, it brings up whatever the fuck is in the first Firefox window on Desktop 1.

Some good theory here but the implementation needs spit and polish.

EDIT: I'm also not sold on how it handles multiple desktops.  While being able to add another any time with a simple click or drag is an interesting idea, I've worked out my desktop habits pretty well over the past few years -- I browse the Web on desktop 1, files on desktop 2, edit documents on 3 and read E-Mail on 4.  If I've only got a browser and a mail client open, I can't have two empty desktops between them.
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Kfroog

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #216 on: April 05, 2011, 07:27:18 PM »

is there a way to tab between windows within a program in OSX?  Because if there is I don't know it.
⌘`
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #217 on: April 05, 2011, 07:44:03 PM »

Ah, so I was right; they cribbed it from OSX and I just didn't know the keystroke before.  Thanks.
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Thad

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #218 on: April 07, 2011, 04:36:54 PM »

You know what I fucking hate?  Going to click on the File menu and accidentally hitting the upper left-hand corner that activates Expose/Activities/whatever.  I turn that corner shit off in OSX.  I would turn it off in GNOME 3, too, except according to my Google research you fucking can't, which is of course awesome.

This is something that Unity does right.  Hovering in the upper left-hand corner shows the panel, but the close/min/max buttons and menus are far enough to the right of it that you don't activate it by accident.  And since all it does is show the panel, even if you DID activate it by accident you'd be able to go right back to what you were doing.

It's also the best way I've seen of doing autohide on a side-aligned panel.  Sticking your list of open programs on the side makes a lot more sense in a world of widescreen monitors than wasting a bunch of space at the bottom, and having it only come out of autohide when you touch a corner, instead of any time you move the pointer to the left-hand side of the screen, means you're not going to accidentally bring it up when you try to click on a bookmark or something like that.
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Rico

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Re: I Don't Do Windows
« Reply #219 on: April 11, 2011, 10:17:54 PM »

I'm building a small form-factor PC that's going to be used entirely for recording spoken events and concerts for a hall. I've checked the hardware for Linux compatibility (even the Nady USB-XLR adapter!) and am planning on just going Ubuntu with Audacity. This looks fairly simple—which makes me nervous—but if anyone has any particular tips feel free to share.
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