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[Bal]

Hi, that anecdotal post was related to the idea that the DRM effect of Steam was a failure, that's all. I guess you can be forgiven for tunnel-vision, but there is more than one point at issue here. I wasn't arguing resell with that post, you can tell because I didn't mention it.

As for the rest, I understand perfectly well what you're saying. I'm arguing more than one point here. My opinion on the legality issue has been stated, but if it's getting lost amongst other points I'll say it again, and alone. I don't think the law is clear enough on this issue to make a determination as to whether what Valve is doing is illegal, or at any rate that determination has yet to be made in a court, and I don't know which way it would, or even necessarily should go.

Also, calling me out for making a jibe at you for telling me I didn't have the right to my own assertion, by telling me you have the right to your own assertion using exactly the same words?

[TA]

Hi, that anecdotal post was related to the idea that the DRM effect of Steam was a failure, that's all.

Except that it wasn't.  At all.  Because what successes you name have absolutely nothing to do with the parts of Steam that are DRM, and everything to do with the parts that could and would continue with the DRM portions removed.

[Bal]

I would argue that it is, but you know what? I'm done here. You guys don't like steam, or think Steam is illegal, and I think it's great, and that the legal issue is TBD at worst. Peace out.

[Royal☭]

No, you're intentionally avoiding the point.  The good parts of Steam don't have to have the bad parts.  The community, the server access, the downloading of games tied to accounts, those can all be DRM free.

And what's worse is you keep hiding behind some "It'll prevent piracy!" defense, which is asinine on multiple levels.  First, people have repeatedly stated that it does jack and all to actually prevent piracy.  It just makes legitimate, legal purchasers feel like shit.  Second, who the fuck cares about piracy?  Only Valve and people with a stick up their ass. As a consumer, it is not our duty to be concerned if the amoral company has to contend with piracy.  We shouldn't give up our rights just so they can feel better.  And third, if you truly are concerned about piracy then DRM isn't the answer.  The best way Valve could combat piracy is to halve the cost of their games.

[Bongo Bill]

It just makes legitimate, legal purchasers feel like shit.

This thread demonstrates the existence of several legitimate, legal purchasers who do not feel this way about Steam DRM.

[patito]

This whole discussion just made me come to the conclusion that the right of first sale is kind of broken, since when people came up with it digital goods and similar stuff didn't exist, and people probably never imagined it would ever be. The model it is based on is pretty silly, and since digital stuff is trivial to reproduce supply and demand really don't apply, like other people have mentioned before in this thread.

In other words I think the right of first sale is kind of stupid when trying to apply it to said digital goods, but it also would be nice if steam would sell their games for cheaper, since the cost of reproduction is pretty minimal. I guess TA and Thad would agree to a monthly fee that would increase if you desire access to more games, or to newer games, since then it would really count as a service.

[Bongo Bill]

So... GameTap?

I prefer paying once, and only for the games I want, over paying every month for all the games I might want. But that's another issue altogether.

[patito]

Yes, Bongo, gametap basically. I personally also like making a single payment as opposed to a recurring payment, but if the recurring payment was like $10 a month, I'm sure I would have even saved money for the amount of time I've had steam and the number of games I have on it.

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Second, who the fuck cares about piracy?  Only Valve and people with a stick up their ass.

And every single fucking company that's trying to make video games for a living. Major publishers are scared to develop for the PC anymore.

Relevant article: Microsoft ad banned over "rent/own" distinction.

[Bal]

stuff

No, I'm just tired of going around in circles. I've clearly failed to express my opinion effectively, and I don't want to go around for a few more pages.

[MadMAxJr]

Can this whole thread go to Real World yet?

[Kazz]

yea

[Rico]

No, you're intentionally avoiding the point.  The good parts of Steam don't have to have the bad parts.  The community, the server access, the downloading of games tied to accounts, those can all be DRM free.

I would say we're all avoiding the point, but I think you're missing the point of Bal and I, which is that Steam has only one thing that's kind of like DRM and there is not exactly a simple solution for it.

[JDigital]

Of course there's a possibility of criminal activity whenever money is involved.  What you're saying is basically "don't keep money in your wallet, you're just encouraging people to mug you".

But even the police advise people to minimize the risk of many crimes, including mugging. Criminals act where the risk is low and the reward high. We already see phishing attempts at real-value accounts including eBay and Paypal. Steam games transferrable between accounts hold legitimacy that simple piracy doesn't, and that value can be stolen.

Now I never said that this was likely or common, only that it can occur.

Making the point AGAIN: it's not a matter of profit or crime or safety or the existing system: it's a matter of rights guaranteed by law ... Any sort of freedom carries its risks of abuse, but that doesn't give corporations or the government the right to deny me those rights.

You are of course correct.

And then we're talking about identity theft, which I'm pretty sure is already illegal.

So is every other crime, but these still occur.

How come you try to inject every debate with a hypothetical situation where people start doing something that's already illegal, already hypothetically possible, and involves some sort of bizarre, convoluted Underpants Gnome moneymaking scheme?

You're overgeneralizing. Two similar arguments in two debates is not "every debate".

Nor, as in this case, is theft of digital goods exactly bizarre. Last year a Japanese boy hacked an MMO staff account, stole $325,000 worth of game currency, and withdrew $5,500 of that as cash. A 200 billion ISK heist in EVE Online is worth anything from $4,400 to $11,600. If I can steal and sell games by hacking, how is that any different from hacking a Paypal account?

[Romosome]

Thank you for posting all that just to prove the immediately obvious.

...

No, seriously.  Thank you.  Somebody apparently really needed to do that.

[Thad]

Also, calling me out for making a jibe at you for telling me I didn't have the right to my own assertion, by telling me you have the right to your own assertion using exactly the same words?

Actually I was calling you out for making a jibe at me for telling you you didn't have a monopoly on what is and is not relevant to the conversation, AT THE PART WHERE I WAS QUITE OBVIOUSLY POINTING OUT THAT THIS IS PURELY A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE, by telling you you don't have a monopoly on what is and is not relevant to the conversation using exactly the same words, seeing as you apparently lacked the sense of irony and grasp of the very very obvious to notice that the comparison was quite clearly deliberate.

That's a very convoluted sentence (hint: intentionally so, because I am once again making a deliberate callback to what you just said!), but you're still dumb.

You guys keep pointing out that I don't actually know what DRM is, so I'm taking my ball and going home.

Kay.

Can this whole thread go to Real World yet?

yea

No.

Because I still have more shitty analogies I want to use that I would not be caught dead using on Real World.

Also, note the following responses to JD, which are exactly what his post deserves but which are RW-inappropriate:

And then we're talking about identity theft, which I'm pretty sure is already illegal.

So is every other crime, but these still occur.

...
...
...

How come you try to inject every debate with a hypothetical situation where people start doing something that's already illegal, already hypothetically possible, and involves some sort of bizarre, convoluted Underpants Gnome moneymaking scheme?

You're overgeneralizing. Two similar arguments in two debates is not "every debate".

...are you fucking kidding me?

Nor, as in this case, is theft of digital goods exactly bizarre. Last year a Japanese boy hacked an MMO staff account, stole $325,000 worth of game currency, and withdrew $5,500 of that as cash. A 200 billion ISK heist in EVE Online is worth anything from $4,400 to $11,600. If I can steal and sell games by hacking, how is that any different from hacking a Paypal account?

Um...because you'd have to sell roughly 100 of them, most likely one-at-a-time, to get to $3000?

[Mongrel]

LOL, thrown back.

Nobody wants this wretched thread.

[Ocksi]

steam could easily set up a secondary market in which people could sell their "used" games with a small fee, using a serial system to identify the account the game is currently linked to.

they could then preserve their market, selling games to people who obviously aren't willing to play full price, and still make a cut from potential pirates who would be less likely to steal a game at a price they see as more fair.  this may cut in to original sales, but it seems like it could be a workable solution if push came to shove for them on the right of first sale issue.

[Kazz]

isn't this what i've been saying

[MadMAxJr]

Necrothread is bad.