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Author Topic: To Steam Or Not To Steam  (Read 18195 times)

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TA

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #240 on: July 03, 2012, 08:30:21 AM »

So, you know the point I keep going on about, that an "indefinite software license" is just a fucking sale, and you have first sale rights regarding that purchase that setups like Steam and Origin are violating?

The highest court in the European Union just agreed.
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Mongrel

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #241 on: July 03, 2012, 08:44:57 AM »

The really interesting part is if they'll try and continue to restrict resales in North America while being forced to allow them in Europe.
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Brentai

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #242 on: July 03, 2012, 09:03:16 AM »

Double-edged sword.  I'd rather DCD organizations found a way to facilitate this themselves (btw I still have that spare Indie Bundle key) rather than being mandated to do it before they were technologically prepared for it.  Valve's going to have to walk a tightrope now between allowing transfer licenses and not making publishers flee like rats, and the only real current solution is more restrictive DRM.

(Pointless aside: "EU law hamhandedly tries to force an industry to implement a practice that it wants to, but is not yet ready for" is pretty much a daily news story at this point.)
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Thad

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #243 on: July 03, 2012, 09:20:55 AM »

The really interesting part is if they'll try and continue to restrict resales in North America while being forced to allow them in Europe.

Speaking in general, I'm sure most software publishers will, at least for now; the non-transferable-license model has been upheld pretty well by our courts.  Speaking specifically of Steam, and in the long term, are trickier prospects.

Double-edged sword.  I'd rather DCD organizations found a way to facilitate this themselves (btw I still have that spare Indie Bundle key) rather than being mandated to do it before they were technologically prepared for it.

The technology's the easy part.  Hell, I'm not sure the publishers have to do anything at all except stop suing people for reselling licenses.

Valve's going to have to walk a tightrope now between allowing transfer licenses and not making publishers flee like rats, and the only real current solution is more restrictive DRM.

For certain values of "real".

As far as publishers fleeing, well, Valve doesn't occupy as privileged a position in game distribution as Apple does in music, but it's pretty close.  EA's in a position to tell Valve to fuck off, but most other publishers aren't -- and the ones that are would probably be looking at EA as an alternative.

And again, that's assuming Valve changes anything at all stateside, which they're not obligated to do.

The EU's another story, and given that this is an across-the-board ruling, there's no reason for publishers to flee Valve for any other distributor at all, because they're ALL going to be subject to the same requirements.
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TA

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #244 on: July 03, 2012, 09:28:15 AM »

Double-edged sword.  I'd rather DCD organizations found a way to facilitate this themselves (btw I still have that spare Indie Bundle key) rather than being mandated to do it before they were technologically prepared for it.  Valve's going to have to walk a tightrope now between allowing transfer licenses and not making publishers flee like rats, and the only real current solution is more restrictive DRM.

(Pointless aside: "EU law hamhandedly tries to force an industry to implement a practice that it wants to, but is not yet ready for" is pretty much a daily news story at this point.)

Right-click a game in your library, click "Convert to Gift".  Boom.  Steam already has mechanisms for everything else.  There are no technological hurdles standing in the way.
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Brentai

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #245 on: July 03, 2012, 09:28:40 AM »

Obviously they're not going to jump off Valve to go to a worse solution with the same issues; I meant more along the lines of fleeing the PC market altogether, or at least moving back to B&M solutions with even more terrible DRM.  Valve did a lot of good getting publishers to dip their toes back in the PC pool with their generally amicable open solution, and the last thing I want to see is them pulling right out and swearing not to do that again.
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Ziiro

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #246 on: July 03, 2012, 09:32:19 AM »

There are no technological hurdles standing in the way.

Except in any game that requires registering the key in another system. GFWL/Stardock/Ubisoft/etc
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Thad

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #247 on: July 03, 2012, 09:43:30 AM »

Obviously they're not going to jump off Valve to go to a worse solution with the same issues; I meant more along the lines of fleeing the PC market altogether, or at least moving back to B&M solutions with even more terrible DRM.  Valve did a lot of good getting publishers to dip their toes back in the PC pool with their generally amicable open solution, and the last thing I want to see is them pulling right out and swearing not to do that again.

A fair enough point, particularly with the Japanese companies who've always been reticent on the PC market.  (SE is tough to gauge; the Square and particularly the Enix brand have never been much on PC, but Eidos has aways been a PC publisher.)  I think we can expect EA to continue publishing on PC no matter what (and can probably expect that Origin US won't change even if Origin EU has to).  I think the rest of the American PC publishers are likely to keep doing what they're doing, and I certainly don't see the European publishers pulling out of the US market over an EU ruling.

And Ubisoft, it should go without saying, can go fuck itself.

There are no technological hurdles standing in the way.

Except in any game that requires registering the key in another system. GFWL/Stardock/Ubisoft/etc

That's a good point.  Valve can trivially allow license transfers, but will it dig its heels in and fight if publishers refuse (in America)?  I think not, at least at this point, though there certainly ARE arguments for a consistent user experience.

And without reading more detail on the ruling, I can't tell if it actually requires DRM schemes to include a transfer mechanism.  The bit about being entitled to updates seems to imply that it does.
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Brentai

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #248 on: July 03, 2012, 09:51:08 AM »

On reflection of it I do think it would be kind of cool if the entire PC market just abandoned the traditional model of single licenses and just went full Humble model, with serious companies actually entering the market with the idea of profit based on completely shareable media in mind.  More of a widely accepted grant style of development than a retail style.

Probably idealistic and none of this will ever happen, but it would be fun.
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Thad

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #249 on: July 03, 2012, 10:02:16 AM »

Well, we also already have a pretty good roadmap for what MS is going to do, based on previous EU rulings:

It will change absolutely nothing stateside;

It will attempt to do the absolute bare minimum to comply in the EU;

It will fail even to do that and wind up back in court in a couple years.
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Ziiro

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #250 on: July 31, 2012, 06:22:57 PM »

Steam updated it's Subscriber Agreement to include an arbitration-only clause which is pretty par for the course these days. It also includes the updates involving the EU ruling - so there's that.

Here's something cool to note though:
On Steam, whenever a customer is unhappy with any transaction, our first goal is to resolve things as quickly as possible through the normal customer support process. However in those instances in which we can't resolve a dispute, we've outlined a new required process whereby we agree to use arbitration or small claims court to resolve the dispute. In the arbitration process, Valve will reimburse your costs of the arbitration for claims under a certain amount. Reimbursement by Valve is provided regardless of the arbitrator’s decision, provided that the arbitrator does not determine the claim to be frivolous or the costs unreasonable.
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Classic

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #251 on: August 01, 2012, 01:38:52 PM »

The cynic in me says this means they want to use an arbitrator that's in their pocket.
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upthorn

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #252 on: August 01, 2012, 02:09:35 PM »

Steam updated it's Subscriber Agreement to include an arbitration-only clause which is pretty par for the course these days. It also includes the updates involving the EU ruling - so there's that.
The clause isn't actually arbitration only. You can still sue them in small claims court, but you can't class-action lawsuit.
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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #253 on: August 01, 2012, 04:50:48 PM »

This hasn't stop shitholes like Kotaku and their ilk from telling everyone it's arbitration only, or in some cases that you can't sue Valve anymore.

Can we burn Games Journalism to the ground yet?
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Mongrel

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #254 on: August 01, 2012, 06:05:33 PM »

Hehehe "Games Journalism".

Probably about as useful/accurate/meaningful as Sports Journalism.
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Thad

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #255 on: August 08, 2012, 10:42:17 AM »

Steam to distribute non-game software.

Makes sense -- given its concern about Apple and MS's App Stores, Valve has an incentive to provide a direct competitor.  And while (short of launching its own OS) it'll never have the built-into-the-OS reach that Apple and MS do, it can still potentially provide a more attractive offer to publishers.
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TA

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #256 on: August 08, 2012, 11:28:20 AM »

Now they just need to start offering TV shows and movies.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #257 on: August 08, 2012, 12:24:14 PM »

I can't tell if that post is facetious or not, but they did distribute Indie Game: The Movie via Steam. The infrastructure is in place.
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Kayma

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #258 on: August 09, 2012, 07:16:19 AM »

I don't love the idea of an "app store", but if I'm stuck with one, I'd rather it was modular enough to work on all my platforms.
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Brentai

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #259 on: August 09, 2012, 08:15:36 AM »

I think even the most aggressive of us can agree that Valve is more trustworthy than Microsoft or Apple, anyway.
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