Brontoforumus Archive

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:


This board has been fossilized.
You are reading an archive of Brontoforumus, a.k.a. The Worst Forums Ever, from 2008 to early 2014.  Registration and posting (for most members) has been disabled here to discourage spambots from taking over.  Old members can still log in to view boards, PMs, etc.

The new message board is at http://brontoforum.us.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 14

Author Topic: To Steam Or Not To Steam  (Read 18301 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Detonator

  • You made me come back for THIS?
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: 42
  • Posts: 3040
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2009, 01:55:34 PM »

You did hear about the 90% piracy rate thing, yes? I have a hard time believing that there's no causal connection.

There's a difference between saying "lack of DRM led to the demise of this studio" (though I'm still not convinced that inability to pirate the game would have led more people to purchase it) and "this proves that DRM must always exist for successful developers".
Logged
"Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit"

Bal

  • Cheerful in the face of nuclear armageddon
  • Tested
  • Karma: 62
  • Posts: 3861
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2009, 02:01:19 PM »

Video game companies will not give up copy protection of some kind for the foreseeable future. I consider this to be the case. Disregarding just the differences between music CDs and game (and other) software hard copies, the way a software is produced, and specifically the way a game is produced, are vastly dissimilar. Music can be made by one person, they don't even need to have an instrument. The investment is relatively small, and so is the risk. 99 cents a song, for example, is a huge profit. The last time music required a huge investment vinyl was still the standard, and home made copies were a ludicrous idea.

Video games on the other hand, and I am speaking of those games making use of modern graphics ie Xbox 360 quality, not independent games of a smaller scale, are a massive investment and represent a very large degree of risk. If you're not making Gears of War, or Final Fantasy, you can live or die by every release. Now, let me say that while I know that most piracy is not a loss, because it was not done by a potential customer, the system the industry exist within requires large investment, and as a developer, or as one of the large publishers, you are beholden to your investors. They will come to you and say "What are you doing about this piracy business? How are you protecting my investment?" and when you say "Why nothing at all, sir, because that is a fallacy" they generally stop giving you money. This idea, the idea of needing DRM just to have an answer to the question, trickles down somewhat, but the independent sector seems to have avoided it so far, probably because no one wants to give them money anyway.

Regarding Steam in the specific, I didn't even consider Steam to be, at it's core, a form of copy protection until this very conversation. I use it as a purchasing platform, a repository for all my PC games, and a community to facilitate playing with my friends. That Steam also happens to make sure I'm not a criminal on the side isn't even a tertiary concern.


The World of Goo incident was damning proof that "no DRM, just trust" is not realistically viable. (The developer has since gone bankrupt.)

Actually it was the publisher that went bankrupt. 2D Boy, the developer, is still doing fine. Largely due to great sales on Steam, the profits of which are wholly theirs.
Logged

Thad

  • Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65394
  • Posts: 12111
    • View Profile
    • corporate-sellout.com
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2009, 02:14:20 PM »

It's stupid, sure, but it's also more or less unavoidable

People are sure throwing around a lot of words like "unavoidable" in this discussion.

Amazon marketplace is a bunch of people trying to move their old stock at the lowest price, which means that the price is always very fluid as stock gets bought and prices get shifted downwards to compete with the lowest price. Single-retailer fixed prices are often laggy; this is no different than the time I bought Neverwinter Nights as a bundle with both expansions because it was cheaper that just buying the expansions.

Of course it's different, because it's the difference between a physical product and a digital one.  There's no damn reason Steam should charge the same price for a digital download than a price of a physical copy other than "because we can".

even if they could, the companies licensing the games wouldn't go for it.

See, NOW you're getting to the real reason here.  What we're talking about is price-fixing by the publishers.  Going back to the music industry, they got in some trouble for that a few years back.

After all, there's a finite number of copies that can be obtained at that Amazon list price.

All of which cost money to press, pack, and ship.

The World of Goo incident was damning proof that "no DRM, just trust" is not realistically viable. (The developer has since gone bankrupt.)

One example isn't proof of shit.  Stardock, CDProjekt, blah blah blah.

The games industry can't expect to be fiscally solvent without some kind of system to prevent people from easily playing their games for free.

Yeah, because it's SO HARD for people to do that with most PC games now.

That means some kind of DRM, and the only DRM that really works so far is third-party authentication, either like Steam or like World of Warcraft. If the company falls apart overnight, yes, maybe your games are now unplayable; but at this point, that simply has to be an acknowledged risk of purchasing games for the PC.

Something doesn't "have" to be acknowledged just because you say it does.  There are plenty of publishers turning profits on games that are available through means other than Steam.

The distinction here is that DRM doesn't do any good for music, because everything on the iTunes music store is also available on CD, which can't be effectively DRM'd. It'd be silly to worry about DRM for a product that's already readily available elsewhere without it.

Yes, because there are no games on Steam that I could just torrent.

You did hear about the 90% piracy rate thing, yes? I have a hard time believing that there's no causal connection.

Wow, I don't even know where to BEGIN critizing that response.

First of all, it's a strawman; instead of defending against Det's point that you have produced only one example, you're defending why that example is right.

Secondly, you produce no fucking evidence whatsoever to actually defend your example other than the word of a biased source whose research methods appear to be "torrents I've looked at" and "E-Mails I've gotten".

Music can be made by one person, they don't even need to have an instrument.

[...]

Video games on the other hand, and I am speaking of those games making use of modern graphics ie Xbox 360 quality, not independent games of a smaller scale

You're right, the music industry and the game industry ARE very different if you explicitly state that you're talking about cheaply-produced independent music but are absolutely not talking about cheaply-produced independent games.

That Steam also happens to make sure I'm not a criminal on the side

See, as a consumer I tend to take offense to being treated, by default, as a potential criminal.  I'm funny that way.
Logged

Bal

  • Cheerful in the face of nuclear armageddon
  • Tested
  • Karma: 62
  • Posts: 3861
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2009, 02:18:10 PM »

I admit that that point was poorly phrased. A single album will never cost 100M$ just to record. How about that?

And yeah, I guess you are funny like that. If you feel that that is the default state of Steam, I guess that's up to you. I feel well treated by Valve, whose constant support of the platform and dedication to it's continued improvement inspire confidence in it's continued existence and quality.
Logged

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2009, 02:28:16 PM »

Most of my older, harder software (as opposed to this soft-software we've got going on) is as unplayable as anything else due to either incompatibility with modern hardware contexts or loss of validation materials (CD-keys, instruction books, inexplicable code wheels, you know what I mean).

"More palatable than the rest" does not necessarily equate to "done right".

Arguing that CD keys are stupid is not equivalent to arguing that online validation is smart.  It's a false choice.

Remind me when I said that.  My point is just that Steam seems the lengthen the value of my legal purchases, not shorten them.

iTunes may be an example of digital content distribution without any sort of validation that may work... and then again, it might not be.  They made that change pretty recently, so there's plenty time for it to fall apart and the RIAA to dance in circles around Steve Jobs' withering form chanting "We told you so."  We'll see where that goes, but in the meantime the best video game example we have of what happens if you take away all accountability is... yeah, what they just said.
Logged

Kazz

  • Projekt Direktor
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65475
  • Posts: 6423
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2009, 02:34:18 PM »

My policy on copy protection is, and will always be:

I won't care what DRM is on my computer until something that I've legitimately purchased fails to work or otherwise causes problems.

So far, I've had Starforce, SecuROM, and probably umpteen other pieces of corporate "malware" on my computer, and everything's been peachy keen.

Furthermore, I'd consider Steam the savior of the PC game market.
Logged

Royal☭

  • Supreme Court Judge President
  • Tested
  • Karma: 88
  • Posts: 6301
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2009, 02:40:34 PM »

iTunes may be an example of digital content distribution without any sort of validation that may work... and then again, it might not be.  They made that change pretty recently, so there's plenty time for it to fall apart and the RIAA to dance in circles around Steve Jobs' withering form chanting "We told you so."

I'm less inclined to believe removing DRM from music files on iTunes will fail, so to speak.  As others have pointed out, most every song on iTunes is available on CD, where it can be easily ripped and traded over the internet.  It's more like Apple realized that DRM wasn't actually helping their bottom line so they decided to cut it out entirely.

Which is true of gaming as well.  It doesn't take but a quick search of torrent sites on launch day of a new game to realize just how little DRM prevents piracy.  Even Steam games and World of Warcraft aren't immune from this system.  It won't be long before companies realize how much money they're throwing away on a system that doesn't work, and that's when DRM will end.  In fact, I'm fairly certain the "pay for content" aspect will begin to whither.  The "Ads in Games" thread batted it around, but it seems more likely that "Free to Play" models will become dominant, with revenue coming from other sources.  This has been the Korean model for a really long time, and EA of all companies is putting a toe in the water with Battlefield Heroes.

So we don't need to throw our hands up and declare ourselves losers before the might of publishing companies.  We can vote with our wallets, and if companies realize that gamers buy fewer games with DRM they might just see the light.


That is if they're smart enough to realize why PC games are slagging anyway.  The "PC Gaming is Dead" trope has been floating around for about 10 years now, even though it seems as strong as ever.

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2009, 02:56:40 PM »

It won't be long before companies realize how much money they're throwing away on a system that doesn't work, and that's when DRM will end.

We've been waiting for that to happen since sometime around Zork, so I think it'll still be pretty long.

Quote
In fact, I'm fairly certain the "pay for content" aspect will begin to whither.  The "Ads in Games" thread batted it around, but it seems more likely that "Free to Play" models will become dominant, with revenue coming from other sources.  This has been the Korean model for a really long time, and EA of all companies is putting a toe in the water with Battlefield Heroes.

F2P is fucking painful to play for most people, though.  Only the really obsessed have the patience to pay into it.  Those Korean companies manage to survive mainly by digging niches into areas where the mainstream market hasn't gotten to yet (for example, I briefly worked at one that did pretty much all of its business in Turkey).

Quote
That is if they're smart enough to realize why PC games are slagging anyway.  The "PC Gaming is Dead" trope has been floating around for about 10 years now, even though it seems as strong as ever.

PC Gaming had hit a real slump for a while there, but made an amazing turnaround in the last few months.  Some combination of real AAA releases, growing irritation with the state of the consoles (wtf ps3 still costs my life savings?) and a price drop in PC hardware has kicked the market right halfway up the anus.
Logged

Thad

  • Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65394
  • Posts: 12111
    • View Profile
    • corporate-sellout.com
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2009, 03:18:56 PM »

Arguing that CD keys are stupid is not equivalent to arguing that online validation is smart.  It's a false choice.

Remind me when I said that.  My point is just that Steam seems the lengthen the value of my legal purchases, not shorten them.

But the reasoning you gave was that they used other, worse methods of copy protection.

If you'd said "What if I lost or scratched my disc?" you may have had a point (or not -- without copy protection, you could just make a damn backup), but you didn't, you talked about code wheels.  You framed it as an issue of one method of copy protection versus several others rather than an issue of copy protection versus no copy protection.

iTunes may be an example of digital content distribution without any sort of validation that may work... and then again, it might not be.  They made that change pretty recently, so there's plenty time for it to fall apart and the RIAA to dance in circles around Steve Jobs' withering form chanting "We told you so."

Amazon's been doing pretty well with DRM-free downloads.  Not iTunes-well, of course, but that's due to some rather nasty anticompetitive behavior on Apple's part (more on that in a moment).

We'll see where that goes, but in the meantime the best video game example we have of what happens if you take away all accountability is... yeah, what they just said.

Why is it the best example?  Why is it a more valid example than, say, The Witcher or Fallout 3?

It's more like Apple realized that DRM wasn't actually helping their bottom line so they decided to cut it out entirely.

Wasn't helping their bottom line ANYMORE.

It was pretty damned useful for helping push their near-monopoly on handheld music players; it's just that it's so secure at this point they no longer need a compatibility lock-in to maintain it.

PC Gaming had hit a real slump for a while there, but made an amazing turnaround in the last few months.  Some combination of real AAA releases, growing irritation with the state of the consoles (wtf ps3 still costs my life savings?) and a price drop in PC hardware has kicked the market right halfway up the anus.

I'd like to see some numbers to back up the notion that the PC games market is in better shape than it's been for the past few years.

But assuming you're right, it tends to throw a wrench in the "PIRACY IS KILLING THE PC GAMING MARKET" argument.  (Which I know you're not making, but others in the thread are.)
Logged

Bal

  • Cheerful in the face of nuclear armageddon
  • Tested
  • Karma: 62
  • Posts: 3861
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2009, 03:21:47 PM »

Of course, it could also strengthen the point that anti-piracy measures are saving the PC market, RE: Steam, the thing this thread is supposed to be about. I don't have the data either way on that point, of course, but the argument could just as easily be made.
Logged

Thad

  • Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65394
  • Posts: 12111
    • View Profile
    • corporate-sellout.com
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2009, 03:25:24 PM »

I admit that that point was poorly phrased. A single album will never cost 100M$ just to record. How about that?

It'll also never cost $40 to purchase.

Of course, it could also strengthen the point that anti-piracy measures are saving the PC market, RE: Steam, the thing this thread is supposed to be about.

It COULD, if you could argue that Steam was preventing people from pirating Spore, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Fable 2, Red Alert 3, or any of the other blockbuster titles of 2008.

The problem is that you can't.
Logged

Bal

  • Cheerful in the face of nuclear armageddon
  • Tested
  • Karma: 62
  • Posts: 3861
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2009, 03:29:42 PM »

Or if you supposed that the other things offered by Steam, such as the vibrant online community, drew people into the service who might otherwise have pirated, or made sufficiently more convenient the process of obtaining PC games legitimately.

I admit that that point was poorly phrased. A single album will never cost 100M$ just to record. How about that?

It'll also never cost $40 to purchase.

And yet the profit margin on video games is still much smaller.
Logged

François

  • Huh.
  • Tested
  • Karma: 83
  • Posts: 3313
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2009, 03:32:30 PM »

I like Steam because it's more convenient than piracy, and what little it asks of me (other than money) I don't mind giving away. I've never sold a game in my life and the absence of physical items is a heavenly blessing for a pathological pack rat such as I. As far as I'm concerned it's all ups and no downs.
Logged

Thad

  • Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65394
  • Posts: 12111
    • View Profile
    • corporate-sellout.com
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2009, 03:42:58 PM »

Or if you supposed that the other things offered by Steam, such as the vibrant online community, drew people into the service who might otherwise have pirated, or made sufficiently more convenient the process of obtaining PC games legitimately.

Which has fuck-all to do with copy protection.

Giving consumers a reason not to pirate software by providing added convenience and value is exactly what I'm arguing FOR.
Logged

Bal

  • Cheerful in the face of nuclear armageddon
  • Tested
  • Karma: 62
  • Posts: 3861
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2009, 03:50:57 PM »

And my point is that that is most of what Steam, and Valve in particular, do. The copy protection is incidental to the platform.
Logged

Thad

  • Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65394
  • Posts: 12111
    • View Profile
    • corporate-sellout.com
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2009, 03:59:55 PM »

THEN GET RID OF IT.
Logged

Kazz

  • Projekt Direktor
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65475
  • Posts: 6423
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2009, 04:03:13 PM »

the absence of physical items

The only game I still play that I've ever needed a CD for was Warcraft 3.  Blizzard recently patched the game so that you no longer require the CD at all.  I haven't actually opened my drive in months.
Logged

Bal

  • Cheerful in the face of nuclear armageddon
  • Tested
  • Karma: 62
  • Posts: 3861
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2009, 04:06:05 PM »

How? The platform is account based, what games you own tied to that account. That is the extent of the copy protection, except with pre-loaded Valve games which are encrypted until the release date. I guess you could allow the passing of ownership rights freely between Steam users, but there is no way any developer or publisher would agree to that, and I'm not sure I agree with the idea myself.
Logged

Mongrel

  • Emoticon Knight-Errant
  • kodePunc Team
  • Tested
  • *
  • Karma: -65340
  • Posts: 17029
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2009, 04:45:41 PM »

Point one:

This debate is not nearly as cut and dried as the RIAA/MPAA ones. The best defense those folks get is always related to the necessity of their survival. But with Steam, a good number of people are arguing NOT JUST that that Steam is less harmful or that they need to survive, but that their business model actually brings many positive benefits to the consumer.

Whether or not you agree with the Valve buisiness model, you need to understand that this debate's middle ground is different than that of other DRM/copyright arguments.

Point two:

I wonder if any of you would be happier, if you just thought of Steam as leasing a game rather than owning it. I mean, I'm a horribly materialistic fuck who LOVES owning giant piles of junk, but even I think that it's nice to just release your grip when you can.

Point three:

Regarding the demise of Valve: So, have none of you been paying attention to the internet for the past, oh fifteen years or so? You have noticed that once something is old enough, it almost always readily available for free? Right?

If Valve died tomorrow and didn't release shit, I'm sure a few folks would have the code for most of their games reverse-engineered and available for Steam-free server-and-local use faster than you can say 'Chapter Eleven'.
Logged

Doom

  • ~run liek a wind~
  • Tested
  • Karma: 46
  • Posts: 7430
    • View Profile
Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2009, 05:07:48 PM »

Every Steam game is already pirate-ready, stop parroting this stupid "WHAT IF VALVE DIES" shit.

I mean christ, I worry that not owning an original Game Boy Advance will put me up shit creek without a paddle. Why? Because if the world goes to a Fallout 3 style hell, I'd need a battery operated hand-held as opposed to everything these days just plugging into a power-socket. Now I need a fucking personal generator to pass the time in Apocalyptica. Thanks, technological progress!

As an aside to Thad: I sort of agree with you but I have to wonder what exactly we could do to push for it. I'm pretty inclined to use Steam because I want to play their games. Not being dead serious here, I'm just sayin'.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 14