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Author Topic: To Steam Or Not To Steam  (Read 18299 times)

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Thad

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2009, 10:58:20 PM »

First sale doctrine doesn't enter into it. First sale doctrine applies to the data, not the license to use it. I'm violating my EULA if I sell you my World of Warcraft account, but Blizzard doesn't mind if I sell you my CDs. I don't see why that should be otherwise; Blizzard owns the game, and if I was worried about selling my account, I wouldn't have agreed to their terms of service, and thus wouldn't have bought the game.

Not a valid example.  WoW is an MMORPG and the game is inseparable from the online service it is coupled with.  I have no objection to license terms restricting what you're allowed to do with a game under those circumstances, as doing things like selling your account can affect the experience of other players.

What I'm talking about is single-player games.  If I pay for a game, it's my property.  License agreements are unconscionable contracts and I'd be VERY interested to see the "you're not buying a product, you're buying a license to use it" argument play out in court.  The closest analog I can think of is a recent case where the RIAA sued a DJ for reselling a promo CD -- can't find the link offhand, but it was probably in the Copyright thread.  The judge decided in the DJ's favor; the disc was his property and the RIAA's attempt to restrict its use was invalid.

Now, Steam IS different, and Rico hit on the reason why: because it's simply a data transfer and not the transfer of physical property.  That distinction might be enough to hold up in court, or it might not -- no way of telling without actually testing it.

But the "you're not buying a game, you're buying a license" argument is still horseshit.

The only reason we say that we've "bought" a game is because it's much simpler than saying that we've "purchased a transferable data disc and nontrasferable indefinite-duration conditional usage license." If that's an important distinction, somebody can set up a wordfilter.

What WE say isn't the issue.  What THEY say is.  If the seller refers to it as the purchase of a game, and does not actually sell us a game, then that's false advertising.

Brentai complains about Thad getting on his case for semantic mistakes and misuses the word "theory" in the same post.

I can't tell if that's irony or not.

...I don't think he misused "theory".  He used it in its informal conversational sense rather than its technical scientific sense, but that's not misuse -- saying "Evolution is only a theory" is misuse because it conflates the two.

I'm in agreeance with Bongo Bill though.  I'm okay with the service Steam provides, but mostly on account that nothing better exists to date.

That's actually pretty much my opinion too, it's just that I think it could still be better.  The overwhelming view in the thread seems to be "Eh, it's the best we're ever going to get, so there's no sense bitching about it."  I disagree; there's room for improvement, and it can happen with sufficient pressure.
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Brentai

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2009, 11:00:59 PM »

Brentai complains about Thad getting on his case for semantic mistakes and misuses the word "theory" in the same post.

What in the blathering fuck are you talking about?  (EDIT: Thanks Thad.)

agreeance is not a word.

That's it.  You've all failed this thread.  No points awarded, next map begins in 30 seconds.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2009, 11:18:31 PM »

also bongo bill's point is somewhat silly.  people actually use that business model to some some substantial degree of success.  that's just the bagelman, but radiohead did it, canadian pop artist siberry uses it, restaurants (these exist elsewhere, too.  just a convenient example).

this will not work for all companies, products, or businesses, but it has definitely proven itself to be a perfectly viable way of operating and to some extent proves that people will value a good product enough to pay what they feel is a fair price for said, no matter of requirements to do so.

And GOG appears to be able to turn a profit with it as well, because their expenses are low compared to game development. It is, as you say, not appropriate for all companies, products, or businesses.
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Ocksi

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2009, 11:24:36 PM »

yet your example is misleading, as taking cost into account, radiohead's product was not cheap to create, yet they used the same business model.

pay-as-you-wish doesn't only apply to bargain bin goods.  it is viable completely on making a good product, not just in a situation where the cost to make is low enough that all income is profit.

i understand this can ring false on account of radiohead only being able to adopt it on account of their millions in the bank based on prior success based on more standard business models, but that only accounts for willingness to take the risk; the album was a success even beyond that, and there are plentiful other examples to prove that can work without total safety net they could afford.
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Thad

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2009, 11:29:17 PM »

i understand this can ring false on account of radiohead only being able to adopt it on account of their millions in the bank based on prior success based on more standard business models, but that only accounts for willingness to take the risk; the album was a success even beyond that

...You can't possibly be saying what it looks like you're saying.

Because what it looks like you're saying is that Radiohead's existing popularity only accounted for their being able to afford to make and market the album, and had absolutely nothing to do with its success.
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Ocksi

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2009, 11:46:56 PM »

saying that while it afforded them the ability to do so, there are examples of people simply taking advantage of a wanting market to accomplish the same without the established base radiohead had when they extended themselves to risk doing it.  they had a much better shot at success pushing the model than others, because beyond music-hungry-market, they were also able to capitalize on their huge fan base.

the bagel man wasn't notorious for delivering good bagels, but working folk do enjoy a good breakfast at a fair price, especially without the hassle of having to get up early or risk showing up late, so he took advantage of the same crowd radiohead did, with a different product and without the resources to back it up if it failed too badly.  restaurants with a pay-as-you-wish scheme take advantage of exactly the same sort of consumer: those willing to pay what they feel is fair, without the issue of feeling they are forced to overpay.

this is all an extension of competing on quality rather than price, but that's a different issue.
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Bal

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2009, 11:49:00 PM »

And then the thread was split a second time.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2009, 11:53:33 PM »

Radiohead? Is that what you kids call it these days? I'm not talking about them.

I don't even know what I'm arguing about any more.
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Detonator

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #88 on: February 08, 2009, 12:14:34 AM »

That's actually pretty much my opinion too, it's just that I think it could still be better.  The overwhelming view in the thread seems to be "Eh, it's the best we're ever going to get, so there's no sense bitching about it."  I disagree; there's room for improvement, and it can happen with sufficient pressure.

If the iTunes store is any indication, the improvements won't be made until a competing online game distributor creates the pressure.  This doesn't seem likely in the near future, but then again I didn't see anything threatening iTunes before the Amazon store came around.
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Brentai

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #89 on: February 08, 2009, 12:22:41 AM »

EA and Activision were both thinking about it, which would have been fun times for everyone*, but now they're both stepping in line behind Valve.  Is Valve now the biggest distributor in the industry?  It's a bit fuzzy.

* Probably not.
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Arc

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2009, 02:21:54 AM »

Backtracking to the subject of data collection for a moment, in actuality the points of drive searches and user-agreements had crossed my mind. Of the opinion that collection boundaries should be revealed in full, but still on the fence about opt-out optionality. A full accounting of all user's provides for the best data, so an optimal accounting could no longer be obtained if opt-out is offered.

the fact of the matter is that there is no PC reselling market.

lol whut

As someone who buys used products the majority of the time, a digital aftermarket is a model that I feel needs to be implemented. Even minimally. Say, after uninstall, a user is able to sell the game back for store credits. GameStop swears by this model as increasing sales for newer titles, so the proof in the pudding could now be evaluated by a second party.

Hurdles still remain. While Valve could be content in knowing the game is uninstalled, and would thus need another purchase to play again, they very well don't need a copy given back to them, as the brick 'n mortar stores require. Compensation in some form towards the developer and publisher would be ideal, but how likely?


the album was a success even beyond that

Absolutely. In the physical format. In the pay - as - you - please format, the results were mixed. The release plan worked best as a promotional event for the album, and will be quite telling if it returns for their next effort.
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JDigital

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2009, 07:27:42 AM »

I'm happy that my games are not tied to physical media. Sure, they're tied to my account, but as long as I have broadband I can trust Steam to replace my game collection on any computer. That's valuable, even if I can't resell them at preowned. I buy games to play, not return at a fraction of their sale price.
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Kazz

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2009, 11:57:13 AM »

But the "you're not buying a game, you're buying a license" argument is still horseshit.

I'm pretty sure it's the truth, though.
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Royal☭

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2009, 12:27:49 PM »

Bullshit.  They advertise as games, they're called games, they are games, not the license to play the game.  If I purchase a piece of software, be it a video game, a word processor, or even an entire operating system, I should be allowed to do whatever I want to it, whether that be making a backup, installing unlicensed modifiers or even allowing myself to run the game without a CD in the drive.  Software companies want me to believe that I am breaking the law, violating copyright if I do something like jailbreak my iPhone.  No other kind of product would be able to get away with shit like this, and we shouldn't give software companies a pass because things seem so strange and different.

Rico

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2009, 12:59:01 PM »

Steam Store
Buy, download, play.


Now you can get fast access to the games you want to play. Steam makes it easy to buy full retail games and download them right to your PC. Play the most anticipated games the day of release…without standing in line. Discover cool new games from independent developers. Or replay a cult classic. From action to strategy, casual to adventure, the games you want to play are on Steam.

Buy and download full retail games

Let’s face it: gaming PCs aren’t exactly portable. With Steam, your games follow you from PC to PC, town to town. Simply log in to see games you’ve purchased....
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Kazz

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2009, 01:04:45 PM »

You win again, semantics.  You have slain the great dragon EULA.
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Thad

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2009, 08:22:43 PM »

...okay, I have a question.

You're going to deride people for minutely parsing semantics.

Precisely what the fuck do you think law IS?
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Mongrel

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2009, 08:29:59 PM »

Annoying? :whoops:
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Kazz

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2009, 09:16:12 PM »

They're selling you a license agreement.  They give you the game data, too, for convenience's sake.
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Brentai

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Re: To Steam Or Not To Steam
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2009, 09:31:25 PM »

But you're still paying the same price as ownership.

I think the bottom line here just stopped being about rights and became "Is Steam selling you swampland in Florida?"
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