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[Kazz]

I don't think they'd swindle so many people.  Gabe Newell can't run away.

[Brentai]

Gabe Newell is not God.

[Detonator]

But you're still paying the same price as ownership.

So if Valve changed their wording to say you were leasing the game instead of owning it, would you still call for a discount to the price?  I have the ability to use Valve's servers to download the game onto as many computers as I want without any physical media, plus the large community aspects.  I think that sort of access makes up for the fact that I don't "own" the game forever.  With this in mind, I gladly buy games over Steam when I could get a physical copy at the store for the same price*.

I don't agree with Valve saying I own a game when I don't, but otherwise I'm fine with their service and pricing.

*not really, considering sales tax and gas and time wasted at Gamestop

[Burrito Al Pastor]

But you're still paying the same price as ownership.

No, because the price of ownership would be at least in the thousands of dollars and need to be negotiated with the company that does own it.

[Kazz]

We've had a closed-doors conference and determined that you have no idea what you're saying.

[Burrito Al Pastor]

The story of my life.

[Guild]

those meetings should be represented as karma by admins
 
public view-istically

that would be rad to the max yo

[Kazz]

stick it up your suggestion box

[Brentai]

But you're still paying the same price as ownership.

So if Valve changed their wording to say you were leasing the game instead of owning it, would you still call for a discount to the price?  I have the ability to use Valve's servers to download the game onto as many computers as I want without any physical media, plus the large community aspects.  I think that sort of access makes up for the fact that I don't "own" the game forever.  With this in mind, I gladly buy games over Steam when I could get a physical copy at the store for the same price*.

Fair enough.  Just because I brought up the question of whether or not Valve was sticking it in your pooper doesn't mean I was entirely convinced they were, and I more or less agree with your reasoning.

Valve doesn't sell games, they lease game data.

Whether or not you are okay with that is your own decision.  TA is not; good on him.

You're right that it's bullshit that they do not make this point clear, but it's arguable that if every legal loophole in the world had to be explained to every dimwit on the planet, we'd all be swimming in an unparsable sea of words. 

And it beats the hell out of bluntly lying about DRM.

[Kazz]

I'm going to wait for Valve or Steam to do something I don't like before I start complaining.

[Brentai]

Steam said unkind things about your mother.

[Friday]

Steam is your mother.

[Thad]

They're selling you a license agreement.  They give you the game data, too, for convenience's sake.

If the seller refers to it as the purchase of a game, and does not actually sell us a game, then that's false advertising.

I'm going to wait for Valve or Steam to do something I don't like before I start complaining.

Maybe you could wait until somebody forgets what you said the last 700 times we had this conversation before you repeat it, too.

Granted, I just repeated MYself, but that was because you don't seem to have gotten my point yet.

I get your point.  I got it the FIRST time you made it.  I just think it's stupid.

[Thad]

And following up on THIS one:

But you're still paying the same price as ownership.

No, because the price of ownership would be at least in the thousands of dollars and need to be negotiated with the company that does own it.

Okay, two things.

First of all, you're suggesting that even if I purchase a physical copy of a game, I do not actually own it.

I'll grant that this argument hasn't been decided in the courts specifically for software, but as noted elsewhere, it HAS for music: the label shipped the DJ a promo CD, and at that point it became his property and they couldn't restrict his use of it beyond normal legal ownership rights.

The second thing you're doing is conflating ownership of a product with ownership of its associated copyrights, which is absurd.  Absolutely nobody, anywhere, is arguing that buying a Superman comic gives you the rights to Superman.

But it DOES give you the right to resell or give away the comic you bought.

So okay, that gets murky when you start talking about dealing with bits instead of a physical product.  But Brent was quite clearly talking about a physical product, viz a boxed copy of a piece of software with a disc and manual.

[JDigital]

Purchase without right of resale is an artifact of the medium. It's impractical to allow resale of digital purchases, much like you can't return underwear to a shop.

Another point of view is that you know what you're getting into when you buy Steam games. With the exception of Steam-exclusives, you're free to buy the game elsewhere on physical media.

Consider also what would happen if Valve gave everyone the ability to sell Steam games to each other. Suddenly, there's real money in hacking Steam accounts. Valve employee accounts, which get every game free, are now worth thousands. A third-party Steam game trader site would spring up, and clever players would simply trade their way through a dozen or more games for the price of one.

[Disposable Ninja]

You know, I had this idea of how you could work resale of digital purchases, then I realized that it's pointless. Because there are infinite digital purchases. Because digital purchases don't depreciate in value when you download them. There's just no point in trading digital purchases.

[JDigital]

Sure there is, same as normal preowned games. If I own $300 worth of digital games which I no longer want, I can sell these for $150. The buyers are people who do want these games, and from their perspective they're getting identical quality of product for half price.

[Disposable Ninja]

But normal games come on game discs which can degrade and come in limited quantities. When you buy a used game, it could have scratches on the game disc just from being played and from being moved from box to console. There's a reason why you can buy a used, physical game for half the price. And if a game is no longer in print, then you pretty much have to buy a used copy.

With digital distribution, there is no degradation, no scratched discs, no mint condition or limited quantities. Every version of a digital game is identical and infinite.

[Detonator]

The bottom line is: reselling digital purchases is great for consumers, and bad for distributors.  Valve has no reason to implement it until there's sufficient legal or competitive pressure to do so.

Steam could do it by changing the accounts of the buyer and seller in order to reflect the sale.  I'm not sure how it would work if there wasn't some sort of DRM in place to make sure the seller didn't just make a copy of the program before selling it.

[Brentai]

With digital distribution, there is no degradation, no scratched discs, no mint condition or limited quantities. Every version of a digital game is identical and infinite.

...but it still loses value over time.

In fact, it is now guaranteed to lose value over time, as it is now impossible for demand to outweigh supply, as is the case with, say, legitimate copies of Klonoa.