Topic: Watchmen (Read 41356 times)

Thad · « **Reply #300 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:13:18 PM »

Yeah, I'm still getting over a nasty bug myself (had a coughing fit as I was typing that sentence). Feel better.

Thad · « **Reply #301 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:35:38 PM »

...you know, I'm tempted to say that Kirby didn't shake up the status quo in the 1980's because the status quo they were shaking up was the one he created, but that's not really true.

Kirby DID define the status quo on at least four occasions -- he and Simon co-created the first romance comic, a genre which was huge in its day; they also co-created Captain America, the most obvious icon of the patriotic superheroes of the 1940's; and then of course he's best known for his work at Marvel, which revitalized and redefined superheroes, and his last big contribution was the giant, epic scope of Fourth World.

But while that stuff all laid some foundations for the status quo of the mid-1980's, it had all been pretty well perverted by then -- the angst of the 1960's had been exaggerated into soap operas and frequent character deaths, and the epic scope of Fourth World had given way to crossovers and events.

Watchmen, Maus, et al DID, however, give rise to another of Kirby's visions: comic books being collected in trade paperbacks and sold in bookstores to a mainstream audience. (This, of course, totally blindsided Moore, and is the reason he never got the rights to Watchmen back and hates DC forever.)

(Incidentally, "comic books published in collections and sold in bookstores" is another definition of "graphic novels", and one I don't find particularly offensive, though I generally call them "trades".)

Thad · « **Reply #302 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:46:50 PM »

Another random thought: changing the line from "I'm not a republic serial villain" to "I'm not a comic book villain" felt a little on-the-nose to me. I realize the need to change the line, because I didn't know what the fuck a republic serial was either, but...again, "I'm not a comic book villain" lacks a certain subtlety.

"I'm not a James Bond villain" might have worked better for me.

Brentai · « **Reply #303 on:** March 09, 2009, 09:29:38 PM »

Pulp serial villain.

Technically means the same thing with a broader scope.

Kazz · « **Reply #304 on:** March 09, 2009, 09:33:24 PM »

Graphic novel villain.

Brentai · « **Reply #305 on:** March 09, 2009, 09:57:59 PM »

Romosome · « **Reply #306 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:22:04 PM »

Quote from: Thad on March 09, 2009, 08:46:50 PM

Another random thought: changing the line from "I'm not a republic serial villain" to "I'm not a comic book villain" felt a little on-the-nose to me. I realize the need to change the line, because I didn't know what the fuck a republic serial was either, but...again, "I'm not a comic book villain" lacks a certain subtlety.

"I'm not a James Bond villain" might have worked better for me.

The funny part about it now is in the comic, he says he's not a movie villain, and in the movie, he says he's not a comic villain.

Bal · « **Reply #307 on:** March 09, 2009, 11:12:26 PM »

In practice Graphic Novel usually means "collected work" and comic book means "serialized printing".

Thad · « **Reply #308 on:** March 11, 2009, 04:16:28 PM »

Was catching up on Gaiman's blog and found a recent Wired interview with Moore -- it's not strictly about Watchmen but is current to the pertinent conversation in that he says "graphic novel" is basically a phrase that makes it okay for people over 13 to be seen reading comics in public.

Ted Belmont · « **Reply #309 on:** March 11, 2009, 04:32:06 PM »

Yeah, but you can't call stuff like A Contract With God a comic book.

Brentai · « **Reply #310 on:** March 11, 2009, 05:40:58 PM »

If you really want to get into semantics, you can't call anything in the superhero genre a comic book, except of course for comic stuff like Deadpool and The Tick.

And even then they're magazines.

Mongrel · « **Reply #311 on:** March 11, 2009, 06:29:35 PM »

Quote from: Thad on March 11, 2009, 04:16:28 PM

Was catching up on Gaiman's blog and found a recent Wired interview with Moore -- it's not strictly about Watchmen but is current to the pertinent conversation in that he says "graphic novel" is basically a phrase that makes it okay for people over 13 to be seen reading comics in public.

Well... That is pretty much what it is. Maybe not in intent, but in terms of practical effect.

Ocksi · « **Reply #312 on:** March 11, 2009, 09:15:56 PM »

Quote from: Neil Gaiman, The Sandman Companion

Once, while at a party in London, the editor of the literary reviews page of a major newspaper struck up a conversation with me, and we chatted pleasantly until he asked what I did for a living. "I write comics," I said; and I watched the editor's interest instantly drain away, as if he suddenly realized he was speaking to someone beneath his nose.
Just to be polite, he followed up by inquiring, "oh, yes? Which comics have you written?" So I mentioned a few titles, which he nodded at perfunctorily; and I concluded, "I also did this thing called Sandman." At that point he became excited and said, "hang on, I know who you are. You're Neil Gaiman!" I admitted that I was. "My God, man, you don't write comics," he said. "You write graphic novels!"
He meant it as a compliment, I suppose. But all of a sudden I felt like someone who'd been informed that she wasn't actually a hooker, that in fact she was a lady of the evening.
This editor had obviously heard positive things about Sandman; but he was so stuck on the idea that comics are juvenile he couldn't deal with something good being done as a comic book. He needed to put Sandman in a box to make it respectable.

Brentai · « **Reply #313 on:** March 13, 2009, 01:27:02 AM »

Finally got a chance to see it. Not as silly as I expected, with the exception of SIDE-SCROLLING BEAT-EM-UP PRISON RIOT ACTION. Rorschach actually comes off better than I thought, though in print I'll always hear him as a cross between Mr. Spock and Cobra Commander. Dr. Manhattan felt totally off but I never liked him much anyway so whatever.

Did anyone else notice a trend of the lines sticking zealously to the source material in the beginning and just gradually becoming more and more tweaked as the movie went on? Favorite addition: [spoiler]Inserting Dan into Rorschach's death scene just so he can give us a Big No.[/spoiler]

Oh well, anyway, one a scale of 1-10 I give it Pretty Okay But Obviously Not The Dark Knight. And that's pretty much all there is to say that hasn't already been said.

PS: It Just Bothers Me: [spoiler]So what exactly got blown the fuck up this time? According to Ozy it sounds like he bluenuked the entirety of New York, Los Angeles, and Moscow among others, and then in the next 10-15 minutes you see Nixon making peace talks with the Kremlin, Spectre visiting her mother in Hollywood, and the New Frontiersman in New York. Were they, like, tiny nukes that managed to miss all the shitty parts of the world or what?

Misha · « **Reply #314 on:** March 13, 2009, 06:44:58 AM »

from the look of the reconstruction scene at the end it seems like a a circular area of the cities got destroyed leaving the parts around that fine or mostly fine

Thad · « **Reply #315 on:** March 15, 2009, 04:43:53 PM »

...so, I'm probably 25 years late to the party here, but...it just occurred to me the other day that Dan looks a lot like Steve Ditko.

Thad · « **Reply #316 on:** April 26, 2009, 03:27:16 PM »

Reread book a few weeks back. Some things I noticed on a second reading that I either missed on the first or simply forgot about (and it bears noting I lazily skipped over all the backmatter the first time I read it, which was a mistake):

After the Comedian says, "You don't REALLY give a DAMN about HUMAN BEINGS" to Jon, he follows it with, "You never cared about whatsername, JANEY SLATER, even BEFORE you DITCHED her. Soon you won't be interested in SALLY JUPITER'S little gal, either." A little bit of paternal concern for the 16-year-old daughter who's fucking the disconnected blue guy -- just a few panels after putting a bullet in the woman carrying his child.

The author on the island, the one who puts together the whole alien planet horror story, is the same guy who wrote the Black Freighter story.

EC Comics never folded in the Watchmen universe. During the anti-comic book hysteria of the 1950's, the government circled the wagons around the industry, because vilifying comics while employing costumed vigilantes would have been an embarrassment.

The "kill a few to save the many" morality shows up repeatedly throughout the story, including during the riots where Jon teleports the rioters home -- he comments that a few died of shock but less harm was done than if the riots had been allowed to continue.

And an obvious one: The guy who gets Rorschach's journal is a dopey-looking redhead with a funny name.

Seems like there was more, but that's the off-the-top-of-my-head stuff.

Brentai · « **Reply #317 on:** April 26, 2009, 04:35:29 PM »

Quote from: Thad on April 26, 2009, 03:27:16 PM

The author on the island, the one who puts together the whole alien planet horror story, is the same guy who wrote the Black Freighter story.

That was a fairly large plot point, wasn't it?

Lottel · « **Reply #318 on:** April 26, 2009, 04:37:00 PM »

I never noticed it.

Büge · « **Reply #319 on:** April 28, 2009, 04:11:02 PM »

Quote from: Thad on April 26, 2009, 03:27:16 PM

And an obvious one: The guy who gets Rorschach's journal is a dopey-looking redhead with a funny name.

Cripes! I never got that one!

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Author Topic: Watchmen (Read 41356 times)