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Author Topic: Watchmen  (Read 41354 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #400 on: March 23, 2012, 07:36:02 AM »

The main benefit to stores is still easy browsing to discover new things and (sometimes) getting reading recommendations. Which ARE things you can get online as well, but which often go a lot better in person.
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Zaratustra

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #401 on: March 23, 2012, 08:04:38 AM »

That post has more butthurt than a gay orgy in the Sahara desert.

Mongrel

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #402 on: March 23, 2012, 08:22:19 AM »

For a split second I thought you meant my post and was INCREDIBLY CONFUSED.

:lol:
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Thad

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #403 on: March 23, 2012, 08:52:23 AM »

Waid's got more over at CA, including this rather important bit:

Quote
I’m not positing that print should just die or go away. I am saying, as I have been for over a year, that unless you’re, say, Brian Vaughan or Bendis or someone else who’s already proven to comics shops that you can move non-superhero fare, print-first creator-owned floppies and graphic novels are a huge risk. Printing prices are a gargantuan bite of your budget at typical direct-market print-runs, even for big name creators. Even to print through Image, as a creator, you have to be willing to work for back-end money or to fund STAGGERING initial costs. There’s no WAY for me — or anyone with less of a track record than I have — to launch two or three new creator-owned books into the marketplace as it is right now, especially non-cape material, and not go bankrupt by issue three.

So that's the other thing: I don't live in Florida.  I've never been to Coliseum Of Comics.  So maybe it IS a great, indy-friendly place.  Maybe Phil Boyle stuffs books like Orc Stain and Optic Nerve and Prophet into his customers' hands and says "Trust me, you need to read this."

But if he doesn't, he's part of the problem, part of the reason that indy creators face a huge uphill battle with print comics.

But only a small part.  Because it's not his fault that the Internet is cheaper than printing and distributing thousands of comics.

Tangentially, I saw an article back in '010 called Zombie mania fuels Tempe comic shop's success; it is, as you might surmise, about how The Walking Dead TV show is creating new business for comic shops.  Specifically, my local comic shop.

It was neat seeing the article, and it was neat seeing my LCS's owner namedropped on Comic Book Resources when they linked it.  But they missed something, in the symbiotic relationship between a product and a salesman: Drew may be benefiting from the success of The Walking Dead, but the success of The Walking Dead is because of guys like Drew.

In 2005, I'd just finished school and was planning a trip back east.  I was stocking up on reading material for the coming plane and bus rides.  Some of the comics I bought were known quantities I'd been meaning to pick up -- V for Vendetta and Luba -- but I also asked Drew for a recommendation, something I'd never heard of.  He told me I needed to check out The Walking Dead.  The first trade hooked me, I caught up on the rest of the trades and then started following it monthly; I've personally plunked down hundreds of dollars on the thing over the past 7 years.

I'm a drop in the bucket, and the book was already somewhat successful by the time I started reading it.  But the point is, while a book like that ultimately catches fire on Amazon and at Barnes and Noble, in those crucial first few months it's guys like Drew recommending it to customers that ensure it survives and even GETS as far as a second trade.

And it bears adding that Kirkman was already a known quantity at this point; he wasn't the rockstar he's become, but he'd had some success with Invincible.  And that even then, the success of the series was a HUGELY unlikely occurrence; even granting the quality of the series (and again, I do quite like it) he was incredibly lucky that it became not merely a runaway hit but the bestselling comic for years running.

So yeah, Waid's right: stuff like Walking Dead, where a creator steps out of relative obscurity and becomes a millionaire, is effectively a once-in-a-decade phenomenon.  It's like winning the lottery (and again, I'm not knocking Walking Dead; I think it's great -- but a lot of great books fail).  And it's much more attractive for creators to pursue digital distribution precisely because it's so much lower-risk.
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Mongrel

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #404 on: March 23, 2012, 09:05:00 AM »

Think about this: How long has it been since someone even decided to seriously even try to found a major comics company in the North American market.

I don't mean crap like Virgin Comics, where some conglomerate dabbles in the market for a bit, producing terrible tone-deaf junk before one exec tells another exec This Was A Bad Idea You Had In The First Place. Nor do I mean the hopeless cases of neckbeards with $10,000 of lottery or trust money who say IMMA OPEN MY OWN COMIC COMPANY AND I'LL SHOW EM ALL! I mean, the real deal. A proper new comics company, professionally created and operated, by industry players.

Is Image really the last one? If that's true than if anything we're long overdue. An industry that goes twenty years without new businesses being founded is not exactly in the picture of health.
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Thad

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #405 on: March 23, 2012, 09:20:40 AM »

Image is the biggest, but no, there've been more since.  Boom (which, coincidentally, was headed by Waid until he stepped down to pursue his digital projects) is probably the most recent player to make a decent go of it.  Dynamite is out there too, and so are IDW and Avatar.  Those are just off the top of my head (and there are more at the bottom of the page through any of those links).
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Mongrel

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #406 on: March 23, 2012, 09:23:35 AM »

Ah, I probably should've remembered IDW at least and probably the others too.

I did not know that Avatar was responsible for Bleeding Cool. That's kind of interesting!
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Thad

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #407 on: March 23, 2012, 09:45:16 AM »

Yeah, there's a recurring feature called "Avatar Plug of the Week", and BC contributor Sy Spurrier is currently writing Crossed.

I think it's interesting to note reliance on licensed properties, too -- Dynamite, the newest of the four I mentioned*, relies the most heavily on licensed properties, while Avatar, the oldest, relies least on them (and could probably survive entirely on Warren Ellis's half-baked ideas -- see left.  ...I just realized I have an Avatar avatar).  IDW's got a whole lot of licensed books but they've also got 30 Days of Night, which is one of the larger creator-owned success stories of the century, and Boom's got Irredeemable/Incorruptible (though they're about to end) and Snarked.

* Well, tied, with Boom.  Which is currently not as reliant on licenses, but that's because of the rather unique situation of having a bunch of Disney licenses and then Disney deciding they'd rather buy their own comic company.  With blackjack!  And hookers!
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Büge

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #408 on: March 23, 2012, 09:56:26 AM »

There was also CrossGen, but it was a blip on the radar.
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Ted Belmont

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #409 on: March 23, 2012, 10:39:12 AM »

Also, Steve Niles is working with Epitaph Records to start up a sort-of alternative to Diamond for creator-owned comics.
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Thad

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #410 on: March 23, 2012, 12:50:31 PM »

Great.

I keep meaning to ask my LCS if they can order a few issues of The Comics through Robin Snyder Publications -- the ones Bissette's been talking about where Ditko opines at length on his tenure at Marvel.  But I keep forgetting/figuring I can't afford extra stuff right now.
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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #411 on: March 23, 2012, 08:50:14 PM »

I miss the card & comics store I had in Texas. It was great, and the first time I discovered it they were selling everything I wanted at like, 60-70% cheaper than the old place I went to. (Huge markups due to being the only store in that area. This new one, Horizon, just opened up.)

Around here we have two shops, both run by tremendous neckbeards. I went into one partially to see what they had for manga, partially to just try and find other nerds in this hickville, and got sneered at when I asked if they carried any manga.

The other one smells like fish. Like, not any kind of vile fish. But a very strong aqautic lifeform odor.
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Thad

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #412 on: March 23, 2012, 11:23:30 PM »

And that always breaks my heart.  Because yes CBG is totally a real guy and there are lots of him, and it stigmatizes the entire industry.

I get the impression that Comic Book Men is not helping.
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Zaratustra

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #413 on: March 24, 2012, 02:57:05 PM »

I'm sorry, but I refuse to defend a system that prevents the entry of hundreds of promising creators every year, just for the sake of some fat retail intermediaries that refuse to get on with the times. I mean why are we even having this discussion we just did away with publishers in videogames entirely because it was universally agreed that they were assholes.

Bongo Bill

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #414 on: March 24, 2012, 03:52:02 PM »

There's no huge faceless comic book retail chain to unite against.

If comics are to grow rather than just prolong their decline, they need to embrace the internet.
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...but is it art?

Mongrel

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #415 on: March 24, 2012, 04:07:24 PM »

You know, who says comics are not actually growing?

'Cause there's an argument to be made that they most certainly are, only the online presence is being underestimated (and also probably makes less money on a per-creator average, but that's because a lot of really marginal stuff can be published online for vastly cheaper costs, so the barrier to entry is lower).
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Thad

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #416 on: March 24, 2012, 04:08:55 PM »

I'm sorry, but I refuse to defend a system that prevents the entry of hundreds of promising creators every year, just for the sake of some fat retail intermediaries that refuse to get on with the times. I mean why are we even having this discussion we just did away with publishers in videogames entirely because it was universally agreed that they were assholes.

Video game publishers are not analogous to comic book retailers; video game retailers are analogous to comic book retailers.

And yeah, we got rid of all the independent video game retailers.  Where did that get us?  A world where fucking GameStop is the only place you can walk into to buy a video game.  (Or Wal-Mart, or Target, or some other big box store.)  I love shit like The Humble Indie Bundle, don't get me wrong -- but I miss the fuck out of my local game shop.

I'm not defending Mr. Albertson's little rant.  And I can absolutely see why indie artists are better off doing the Web thing.  But I like comic book shops, and I like independently-owned retailers in general, and I'm sorry to see them in trouble.

I just don't think boycotting Mark Waid until he stops telling people there's an Internet is a good solution to the problem.
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Büge

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #417 on: April 13, 2012, 07:17:10 AM »

AICN interview with Azzarello

Quote
BA: Well, I don't want to speak for any of the other writers, but for me, it's a chance to explore what makes these characters who they are. Rorschach is a really fascinating character; so many people identify with him, and I don't know why. Do you?

The fact that he has to ask this question shows that he doesn't get it. Rorshach was a decisive character. Right or wrong, he made decisions based on a code he followed, even if that code was simplistic, destructive and ultimately unsustainable. Decisive characters are compelling, even if they're absolute scumbags.
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TA

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #418 on: April 13, 2012, 07:35:53 AM »

AICN interview with Azzarello

Quote
BA: Well, I don't want to speak for any of the other writers, but for me, it's a chance to explore what makes these characters who they are. Rorschach is a really fascinating character; so many people identify with him, and I don't know why. Do you?

The fact that he has to ask this question shows that he doesn't get it. Rorshach was a decisive character. Right or wrong, he made decisions based on a code he followed, even if that code was simplistic, destructive and ultimately unsustainable. Decisive characters are compelling, even if they're absolute scumbags.

I think he knows why Rorschach is compelling, what he doesn't get is why people identify with him.  Which, to be fair, Moore has been pretty clear on not getting either.
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Beat Bandit

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Re: Watchmen
« Reply #419 on: April 13, 2012, 07:49:23 AM »

I would agree except they cover that.

Quote
MA: I think because, as dark as he is, he's an idealist.

BA: I don't know, he's got a really twisted worldview.

MA: Yeah, but in the end, he's the only one who really fights for the truth; everyone else is sort of willing to compromise and go along with the lie.

BA: Huh, I never thought of it that way. I guess yeah, he fights for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. (laughs)

I'm not about to write off the whole thing based off one response but yeah, it comes off bad.
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