Brontoforumus Archive

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:


This board has been fossilized.
You are reading an archive of Brontoforumus, a.k.a. The Worst Forums Ever, from 2008 to early 2014.  Registration and posting (for most members) has been disabled here to discourage spambots from taking over.  Old members can still log in to view boards, PMs, etc.

The new message board is at http://brontoforum.us.

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 ... 25

Author Topic: Watchmen  (Read 41381 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Romosome

  • Tested
  • Karma: 20
  • Posts: 1841
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #280 on: March 09, 2009, 06:21:58 PM »

I agree that graphic novels vs comics is frivolous terminology hairsplitting.  I don't think that the merits of an ongoing story vs a self-contained one is necessarily as dismissable though.

What's the proper way to look at works like Spider-Man, which have spanned decades?  Can it even be considered one "work" since it's done by so many artists and writers?  Or the Simpsons for that matter?

I'm not even taking a stance (or suggesting there's a stance to take), it's just a nice ponderable.
Logged

Royal☭

  • Supreme Court Judge President
  • Tested
  • Karma: 88
  • Posts: 6301
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #281 on: March 09, 2009, 06:32:28 PM »

Newbie, is the guy in that article saying that Maus is not good a good comic book because it doesn't have super-powered characters in tights punching each other?

Kazz

  • Projekt Direktor
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65475
  • Posts: 6423
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #282 on: March 09, 2009, 06:33:41 PM »

What's the proper way to look at works like Spider-Man, which have spanned decades?  Can it even be considered one "work" since it's done by so many artists and writers?  Or the Simpsons for that matter?

apparently the proper terminology is not "graphic novel" vs "comic book".

is there even such thing as a "graphic novel"?
Logged

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #283 on: March 09, 2009, 06:35:31 PM »

No, you can't view Spider-Man as a whole as a work.  A character, franchise, an icon, a theme, or several others, but not a work.  This should not be a crippling thing though.  Spider-Man may not be a work, but something like, say, The Clone Saga is (not an especially good one of course but that's not the point I'm driving at).  Crisis on Infinite Earths, Civil War, the Phoenix Saga, the arc where Gwen Stacey died, issue #457 where Galactus slapped Grimlock with his Earth-sized penis... it is very possible to take these stories, even if they are parts of a greater whole, and still compare them, favorably or unfavorably, so saaaaaay Little Women.
Logged

Royal☭

  • Supreme Court Judge President
  • Tested
  • Karma: 88
  • Posts: 6301
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #284 on: March 09, 2009, 06:36:51 PM »

KAZZ VS KAZZ

a graphic novel ends.

a comic book goes on and on forever, through an endless series of writers.

is there even such thing as a "graphic novel"?

I just hope he doesn't end up reducing Kazz to tears this time.

Mongrel

  • Emoticon Knight-Errant
  • kodePunc Team
  • Tested
  • *
  • Karma: -65340
  • Posts: 17029
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #285 on: March 09, 2009, 06:39:10 PM »

To rephrase an earlier point of mine... The english language is the only language that contains discrete terms like 'graphic novel' and 'comic book'. Every other language refers to sequential art by one, universal term.

Yes, I know that in some languages they have distinctions regarding physical published size, or they have distinct terms for subgenres. But my point stands. :blahblahblah:
Logged

Royal☭

  • Supreme Court Judge President
  • Tested
  • Karma: 88
  • Posts: 6301
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #286 on: March 09, 2009, 06:41:11 PM »

Yeah and Eskimos have like 5 billion terms for ice.  The comic book is a very American thing, and as we're also a culture that likes to sort and organize every last thing.  Look at music for instance, where just about every damn song can get its own genre.  And for the record, I use "comic" to refer to any form of sequential art as well as individual issues, "graphic novel" to reference anything in paperback, and "sequential art" to be a smartass.

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #287 on: March 09, 2009, 06:49:25 PM »

KAZZ VS KAZZ

a graphic novel ends.

a comic book goes on and on forever, through an endless series of writers.

is there even such thing as a "graphic novel"?

I just hope he doesn't end up reducing Kazz to tears this time.

:kazz: Graphic novels can't be comic books!  There's a clear difference!
:thad: Th-
:kazz: You fool!  There's no such thing as a graphic novel!  It's a made-up term!
:thad: Y-
:kazz: Every term in the English language is made up!  Usage makes them words, and "graphic novel" is used enough to be a word!
:thad: Str-
:kazz: What about "pwned", or "ain't"?  People use those all the time, but they're still not real words!
:thad: I-
:kazz: I contend that they are!  That the definition of such terms are considered common knowledge makes them words as much as any other!
:thad: -hate-
:kazz: Aha!  But there is no agreed definition of the term "graphic novel"!  Thus, it is not a real word!  QED!
:thad: -you-
:kazz: Of course not, it's two words.
:thad: -all.
:kazz: You are in third grade!
:thad: Goddammit!
Logged

Classic

  • Happens more often than you'd think.
  • Tested
  • Karma: -58471
  • Posts: 7501
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #288 on: March 09, 2009, 06:53:34 PM »

Today someone asked me, and I quote, "Out of the blue, have you seen Watchmen?"

I told him Mr. Manhattan saw what he did there.
Logged

Kazz

  • Projekt Direktor
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65475
  • Posts: 6423
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #289 on: March 09, 2009, 06:55:00 PM »

one of me is leaving forever.

anyway, thad said there wasn't a difference between graphic novels and comic books, so i asked what a graphic novel is, if not a comic book that ends (which is what Watchmen is).
Logged

Büge

  • won't give you fleaz
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65304
  • Posts: 10062
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #290 on: March 09, 2009, 07:02:05 PM »

Today someone asked me, and I quote, "Out of the blue, have you seen Watchmen?"

I told him Mr. Manhattan saw what he did there.

 :humpf:
Logged

Burrito Al Pastor

  • Galatea is mai waifu
  • Tested
  • Karma: 10
  • Posts: 1067
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #291 on: March 09, 2009, 07:17:00 PM »

Well, does he actually have any doctorate degrees?
Logged
I'm a heartbreaker... My name... Charles.

Disposable Ninja

  • Tested
  • Karma: -65447
  • Posts: 4529
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #292 on: March 09, 2009, 07:22:47 PM »

... yes. Yes he does.
Logged

Pacobird

  • Just fell off the AOL cart
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65482
  • Posts: 1741
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #293 on: March 09, 2009, 07:23:47 PM »

What's the proper way to look at works like Spider-Man, which have spanned decades? 

serialized fiction?
Logged

Thad

  • Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65394
  • Posts: 12111
    • View Profile
    • corporate-sellout.com
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #294 on: March 09, 2009, 07:35:52 PM »

Quote
[...] Spiegelman is a talented guy, certainly.  [...] But the idea that, as a comics writer/artist, his work is better or more talented or has done as much to influence and shake up the genre than, among his contemporaries, say, Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Harvey Pekar, or the artists they work with, Dave Gibbons, Dave McKean, and Eddie Campbell, not to mention Mobius, the Hernandez brothers, Kyle Baker, or any one of a dozen others, including, in another area of comics, Neal Adams or Frank Miller, is cause not even for argument but for uproarious laughter at the absurdity of the universe. [...]

The fact that he never mentions the words "Jack Kirby" in some part of that diatribe makes me want to dig up his grave so I can punch him.

He had to leave someone for the "any one of a dozen others" to refer to.

Jack Kirby was not a contemporary of Spiegelman, Moore, et al.  He was a trailblazer nearly half a century before they hit the scene.

I agree that graphic novels vs comics is frivolous terminology hairsplitting.  I don't think that the merits of an ongoing story vs a self-contained one is necessarily as dismissable though.

What's the proper way to look at works like Spider-Man, which have spanned decades?  Can it even be considered one "work" since it's done by so many artists and writers?  Or the Simpsons for that matter?

I'm not even taking a stance (or suggesting there's a stance to take), it's just a nice ponderable.

This I'll agree with.  I've bitched at some length about how most comics atrophy over time -- but at the same time, I've been quite enjoying Batman lately, so obviously there's a cyclical nature to these things.

The problem is that the distinction isn't cut and dried.  Take League of Extraordinary Gentlemen -- it was a self-contained story with a beginning, middle, and end that has since spawned two sequels, with a third coming and more likely, and as a series it has no determinate end in sight.  By Kazz's definition, is it a comic book or a series of graphic novels?  And what the fuck is the difference between a comic book that doesn't end and a series of graphic novels with no determinate end in sight?

And, okay, let's say Batman is a "comic book" under Kazz's definition, because it's been running steadily since 1940.  But what about Batman: Cacophony, the 3-issue miniseries by Kevin Smith and Walt Flanagan?  It has a consistent creative team, a beginning, a middle, and an end, and spans only those three issues.  Is it then a graphic novel?

Let's say it is.

So okay.  What about Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?, by Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert?  It is also a Batman story with a consistent team, a beginning, a middle, and an end, and spans only two issues.

But wait!  While Cacophony was a three-issue miniseries, Whatever Happened? takes place in Batman and Detective Comics, both of which are comic books!

And then you get into stuff like Love and Rockets, which has inconsistent format, inconsistent paper size and page count, but always has the same creative team and which sometimes does and sometimes doesn't have continuity, and whose two major continuing stories break down into arcs which may run only a few pages or span several years' worth of issues, and and and and...

anyway, thad said there wasn't a difference between graphic novels and comic books, so i asked what a graphic novel is, if not a comic book that ends (which is what Watchmen is).

you...didn't actually ask me that at all.  But fortunately, I already answered anyway:

"Graphic novel" is a term people use to differentiate between things like Watchmen and things like Spider-Man, as if there's some important distinction there, as if one is art and the other is schlock.  Graphic novels are for adults, comics are for kids, or adults with brain damage.

The original distinction between a comic book and a graphic novel, of course, was simply one of format: comics are serialized, include ads, generally run about 24 pages, and are stapled, while graphic novels are bound and of an indeterminate length and format.

I have no problem with the latter, original and purely technical definition.  What bothers me is the former, connotative one, which I believe is something elitists use to dismiss, say, Ditko-era Spider-Man or Kirby-era Fantastic Four as somehow inferior to something like Watchmen or Maus.

Don't get me wrong, Watchmen and Maus are fucking fantastic.  But anyone who fails to see the genius in Ditko's and Kirby's work has a rod up his ass.
Logged

jsnlxndrlv

  • Custom Title
  • Tested
  • Karma: 24
  • Posts: 2913
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #295 on: March 09, 2009, 07:40:10 PM »

Newbie, is the guy in that article saying that Maus is not good a good comic book because it doesn't have super-powered characters in tights punching each other?

I'd say he isn't.  The bit I quoted comes in the middle of his response to an interview question asking whether it's even possible to frame a potential question about the future of narrative that would yield illuminating results about what's worthwhile to contemplate, and why.  Delany's response is to suggest that any meaningful imagining of a literary future must necessarily be informed by some kind of disciplined history of the various practices of writing, the latter of which is actually embodied in the shifting boundaries of genre.

He goes on to explain that the boundaries between the literary and para-literary formats, and between the genres within those formats, are maintained by a sense of cultural superiority, not unlike the one implied by hierarchies like this one.

Delany stresses that, when these boundaries are breeched by an emissary from the low side to be included among the more sophisticated and canonized elect, the emissaries are chosen less for being the greatest or most influential among their fellows, but rather on a variety of nonliterary factors--possibly excepting some topical tag that's currently in fashion in the normative discourse.

So, to summarize, it's not so much that Maus is not a good comic book because it doesn't have people in tights punching each other (PITPEO) as it is that whether Maus has PITPEO or not is irrelevant to its quality as a comic book, which isn't necessarily bad so much as it is simply greatly overrepresented if you take the Times "100 Best" list as your sole source.

(I AM NOT EDITING THIS TO RESPOND TO THE FOUR NEW REPLIES THAT OCCURRED SINCE I STARTED WRITING IT)
Logged
Signature:
Signatures are displayed at the bottom of each post or personal message. BBCode and smileys may be used in your signature.

jsnlxndrlv

  • Custom Title
  • Tested
  • Karma: 24
  • Posts: 2913
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #296 on: March 09, 2009, 07:48:14 PM »

The fact that he never mentions the words "Jack Kirby" in some part of that diatribe makes me want to dig up his grave so I can punch him.

He had to leave someone for the "any one of a dozen others" to refer to.

Jack Kirby was not a contemporary of Spiegelman, Moore, et al.  He was a trailblazer nearly half a century before they hit the scene.

Hoo.  Look, it's not Delany's fault he failed to include every noteworthy figure in the history of comics in his paragraph-long digression during an interview about experimental fiction; he's a self-professed comics fan, so I'm sure that, put to the question, his elaboration on the history of the medium would put Kirby in his rightful place.  Failing that, I'm sure he'd be able to produce far better reasons for his omission than the ones I've produced.

The fault lies with me for thinking the paragraph in question had anything to do with the discussion in this thread; since I am not a comics fan, just an interested bystander who occasionally dips into these threads or Scott Tipton's Comics 101 series, I should have known better than to open my mouth.  Or my reply box, as it were.
Logged
Signature:
Signatures are displayed at the bottom of each post or personal message. BBCode and smileys may be used in your signature.

Thad

  • Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65394
  • Posts: 12111
    • View Profile
    • corporate-sellout.com
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #297 on: March 09, 2009, 07:54:06 PM »

Hoo.  Look, it's not Delany's fault he failed to include every noteworthy figure in the history of comics in his paragraph-long digression during an interview about experimental fiction; he's a self-professed comics fan, so I'm sure that, put to the question, his elaboration on the history of the medium would put Kirby in his rightful place.  Failing that, I'm sure he'd be able to produce far better reasons for his omission than the ones I've produced.

You misunderstand.

I just GAVE the reason for his omission: Kirby doesn't BELONG in that list, because that is a list of influential comic book writers and artists from the 1980's.

While Kirby was still active in the 1980's, the work he is known for is from an entirely different era than the artists Delaney was listing.  (Well, TWO entirely different eras, really, the Golden AND Silver Ages.)
Logged

jsnlxndrlv

  • Custom Title
  • Tested
  • Karma: 24
  • Posts: 2913
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #298 on: March 09, 2009, 07:56:39 PM »

Ah, yeah, you're right.  My bad.
Logged
Signature:
Signatures are displayed at the bottom of each post or personal message. BBCode and smileys may be used in your signature.

Kazz

  • Projekt Direktor
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65475
  • Posts: 6423
    • View Profile
Re: Watchmen
« Reply #299 on: March 09, 2009, 08:06:13 PM »

anyway, thad said there wasn't a difference between graphic novels and comic books, so i asked what a graphic novel is, if not a comic book that ends (which is what Watchmen is).

you...didn't actually ask me that at all.

perhaps not.

but i have had quite a bit of nyquil these past few days.

 :slow:
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 ... 25