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Author Topic: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films  (Read 7922 times)

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Pacobird

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2009, 12:06:23 PM »

Django - Vigilantism heroically striking down corrupt bureaucracy.

Which is to say Fascism.

What? Communist revolutionaries fit that definition just fine.

The difference is that the Communist revolution is a collective act against a corrupt private oligarchy (real or perceived), while the Fascist revolution is perpetrated solely by (or focused on) a charismatic individual against an effete and corrupt public order. 

At the risk of sounding trite, they really are opposite sides of the same coin.
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Transportation

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2009, 12:30:31 PM »

That seems a bit simplistic. Communist revolutions were frequently focused on charismatic leaders such as Mao or Lenin. Secondly, they are always against current public order. That's the whole point of overthrowing the government. I'm not sure what you mean by private entity in this case.

You're also removing the collective aspect from Fascism. It's classical form is a overreaction against communism. Instead of a general lower class uprising it's focused around corporate interests and a terrified populace.

Really, it probably be more accurate to characterize them as anarchists. Mass movements and individualism do not go hand-in-hand.
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Pacobird

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2009, 12:49:07 PM »

That seems a bit simplistic. Communist revolutions were frequently focused on charismatic leaders such as Mao or Lenin. Secondly, they are always against current public order. That's the whole point of overthrowing the government. I'm not sure what you mean by private entity in this case.

Mao or Lenin would not have phrased it thus, whether they were popular idealists or cynical powermongers themselves.  That stands in sharp contrast to Hitler and Mussolini, whose cults of personality were integral to their movements.

Communism envisions a collectively-run government that may cede power to a dictator to promote the revolution; Fascism never pretends to want anything but dictatorship and in fact frames itself as an explicit reaction to the perceived failings of democracy.

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You're also removing the collective aspect from Fascism. It's classical form is a overreaction against communism. Instead of a general lower class uprising it's focused around corporate interests and a terrified populace.

No.  Classical Fascism was a reaction to the perceived decadence of Western intellectualism and democracy,* and the abject failure of those concepts to alleviate the suffering of the working classes in the Great Depression was the means by which those movements gained whatever popular support they actually did.  And gain lower class support they did, to a point, but ultimately yes, they were able to take power through collusion with old money and the military (again in sharp contrast to Commies).

The anti-communist bit was there, sure, but it was exaggerated as a tagline to legitimize themselves to the middle classes, demonize political opponents, and shore up support with the military and commercial interests that used them as thugs.  It was pure opportunism, and in fact, the early days of particularly Nazism had a heavy semi-Communist element that coalesced around Georg Strasser and certain portions of the SA, including Rohm.

Also, there IS a collective aspect to Fascism, but it's not in any way ennobling in the way Communism is supposed to be.  It's basically "you are shit and are worthless on your own, but if you unite behind this leader/iconography you can be a part of something great".  Pretty much exactly like Project Mayhem.  Durden's a Fascist, sorry. :(

*in saying this, I'm assuming Fascist ideological purity for the sake of argument, but hey

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Really, it probably be more accurate to characterize them as anarchists. Mass movements and individualism do not go hand-in-hand.

Cult of Personality != Individualism
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Transportation

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2009, 02:53:49 PM »

That seems a bit simplistic. Communist revolutions were frequently focused on charismatic leaders such as Mao or Lenin. Secondly, they are always against current public order. That's the whole point of overthrowing the government. I'm not sure what you mean by private entity in this case.

Mao or Lenin would not have phrased it thus, whether they were popular idealists or cynical powermongers themselves.  That stands in sharp contrast to Hitler and Mussolini, whose cults of personality were integral to their movements.
It was a general observation. Charisma in a revolutionary leader is a necessity, really. And that second statement highlights the problem of fascism. Which, unlike communism, does not having any concrete doctrines.

I would contend that the charismatic part of fascism is only needed for the revolution, afterward it can transition to a more bureaucratic leadership, as occurred in communist states.

However, upon thinking it over, I can not come up with any examples! So I will concede the point.

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Communism envisions a collectively-run government that may cede power to a dictator to promote the revolution; Fascism never pretends to want anything but dictatorship and in fact frames itself as an explicit reaction to the perceived failings of democracy.

The last part is true enough, but frequently that failure was associated with leftist elements participating in the government. The numerous communist and anarchist militias roaming about did not help.

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You're also removing the collective aspect from Fascism. It's classical form is a overreaction against communism. Instead of a general lower class uprising it's focused around corporate interests and a terrified populace.

No.  Classical Fascism was a reaction to the perceived decadence of Western intellectualism and democracy,* and the abject failure of those concepts to alleviate the suffering of the working classes in the Great Depression was the means by which those movements gained whatever popular support they actually did.  And gain lower class support they did, to a point, but ultimately yes, they were able to take power through collusion with old money and the military (again in sharp contrast to Commies).
Again, the failure of the intellectuals would be that they were considered to be communists. The successes of the Russian Revolution emboldened them (the intellectuals) further. This leads us to...

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The anti-communist bit was there, sure, but it was exaggerated as a tagline to legitimize themselves to the middle classes, demonize political opponents, and shore up support with the military and commercial interests that used them as thugs.  It was pure opportunism, and in fact, the early days of particularly Nazism had a heavy semi-Communist element that coalesced around Georg Strasser and certain portions of the SA, including Rohm.

Hitler frequently decried the Bolsheviks; ranking them up with Jews and Slavs in terms of evilness. The movement had to have some ideas behind it. It's not like they came together in some cabal bereft of any goals beyond power.

Fascism having socialist roots doesn't contradict this. It just provided a way of gaining the benefits worker's wanted, but without the antireligious, internationalist, and equality rhetoric. Instead it validated their religion, nationalism, and whacky racial theories.

And Rohm was purged for disagreeing the more conservative elements. His ideas on nationalization did not endear him to the upper classes. Nazism's final form would come later, so it doesn't really contradict my point.

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Also, there IS a collective aspect to Fascism, but it's not in any way ennobling in the way Communism is supposed to be.  It's basically "you are shit and are worthless on your own, but if you unite behind this leader/iconography you can be a part of something great". 
I never really got that feeling from fascist propaganda. Well, beyond the standard solidarity posters portraying the individual as weaker compared to the group. Which applies to every war poster ever.

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Pretty much exactly like Project Mayhem.  Durden's a Fascist, sorry. :(

:negative: Personality cults are not the same as fascism.

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Really, it probably be more accurate to characterize them as anarchists. Mass movements and individualism do not go hand-in-hand.
Cult of Personality != Individualism
Must have confused it with one of the posts on the Incredibles! My bad.
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Büge

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2009, 03:14:45 PM »

Every movie has a political subtext.  I challenge anyone to find one that doesn't.

Amélie?

Dracula?

Kill Bill: Vol. 1?

Clerks?

Manos: The Hands of Fate?

Pi?

Also, I'm sure Django has all kinds of political subtext, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is.

EXTRA CREDIT: Space Mutiny?

Ooh, ooh! Lemme try.

Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure

Memento

The Usual Suspects

The Rocky Horror Picture Show
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Brentai

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2009, 03:32:23 PM »

I've been watching all the Alien movies in a row so... I got nothing.  I mean the only way the entire series could hit you in the face with subtext any harder is if Sigourney Weaver grabbed the camera and screamed "BIG BUSINESS IS EVIIIIIIIL!!!!!!"

...I'm up to Resurrection now, so the way things have been going I'm not ruling out that that could still happen.
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Zach

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2009, 03:40:24 PM »

Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure
Postmodernist fear at its finest. History is reduced to easy-to-remember, discrete stereotypes that are recontextualized to support the needs of the present, media-saturated culture.  

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Memento

There is no great conspiracy ruling over American life, just a bunch of unfortunate mistakes that result in failure and blood. The form suggests that linear time is just a construct that helps us make "sense" of the un-ending stream of stimulus that hits us. We need this illusion/filteration system to stay sane.

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The Usual Suspects

Haven't seen it.

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The Rocky Horror Picture Show

Don't trust strangers. (Alternate, reader-response version: Freak the mundanes, let them know that there's more to their little world than a traditional marriage.)
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2009, 04:22:57 PM »

Ernest Scared Stupid

Ernest Goes to Jail

Ernest Goes to Africa

Ernest Saves Christmas

Slam Dunk Ernest

And so on
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Catloaf

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2009, 04:42:42 PM »

Eraserhead

Do not reproduce.  It will only bring you sadness.  Also, big business is trying to make you suffer.
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Mongrel

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2009, 05:02:42 PM »

If law history THE INTERNEEEETTTTSSSS teaches us anything it's that you can read damn near anything into damn near anything if you twist enough.
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Pacobird

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2009, 07:43:36 AM »

First of all, let me say I'm enjoying this.  I don't have mountains of time right now to go through all of this so I just want to hit on a few things.

It was a general observation. Charisma in a revolutionary leader is a necessity, really. And that second statement highlights the problem of fascism. Which, unlike communism, does not having any concrete doctrines.

I would contend that the charismatic part of fascism is only needed for the revolution, afterward it can transition to a more bureaucratic leadership, as occurred in communist states.

However, upon thinking it over, I can not come up with any examples! So I will concede the point.

Yeah, I've always considered the most important evidence of the theory that a central charismatic figure (as opposed to a unifying ideology) is a necessary rallying point for Fascism is that Fascist regimes tend not to last more than a week after that figure gets canned. 

Of course, that may also have to do with the fact that historically, self-avowed Fascist governments have been fucking psychotic and the death of the leader comes hand in hand with the overthrow of the government.  But out of all the Fascist states of the 30s and 40s, only Germany and Japan had a public that were at any point really enthusiastic about their form of government.*  The Italians and Spaniards were apathetic/fearful and the Austrians and Norwegians were occupied countries.


*and I'm semi-inclined to not even count Japan for these purposes because the Fascist government was not an insurgent one.

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The last part is true enough, but frequently that failure was associated with leftist elements participating in the government. The numerous communist and anarchist militias roaming about did not help.

Not exactly.  The Fascists blamed their national problems largely on foreign democracies; to their minds, the fact that say, Weimar, was center-left wasn't GREAT but the reason why it had to be completely destroyed was that it was "colluding" with the West by paying up WWI reparations and adopting their form of government.

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Again, the failure of the intellectuals would be that they were considered to be communists. The successes of the Russian Revolution emboldened them (the intellectuals) further. This leads us to...

Hitler frequently decried the Bolsheviks; ranking them up with Jews and Slavs in terms of evilness. The movement had to have some ideas behind it. It's not like they came together in some cabal bereft of any goals beyond power.

Fascism having socialist roots doesn't contradict this. It just provided a way of gaining the benefits worker's wanted, but without the antireligious, internationalist, and equality rhetoric. Instead it validated their religion, nationalism, and whacky racial theories.

Well, in all fairness, the racism thing is really only applicable to Nazism.  Mussolini was pretty fucking leery of Hitler's treatment of Jews (but by that point was in a powerless position) and if I'm not mistaken it was a major reason why Franco didn't throw in his lot with the Axis.  Various Fascist views on religion are a fucking novel in themselves, but religion was generally seen as something to be propped up or abandoned based on how well it supported the rabid national identity Fascism needed.

Basically what I'm getting at here is that if there is any unifying theme to Fascist attitudes towards any of these things, it's that those views are entirely based on what is most likely to turn citizens into fanatics.

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I never really got that feeling from fascist propaganda. Well, beyond the standard solidarity posters portraying the individual as weaker compared to the group. Which applies to every war poster ever.

AN ARMY OF ONE



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:negative: Personality cults are not the same as fascism.

Of course not.  It's what Durden says that makes him a Fascist~
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Thad

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2009, 07:18:44 PM »

it romanticizes the battle to save old, dying traditions from the march of time.

Except that it ends with the keepers of ancient tradition leaving forever.

As for the ents and saruman, that kind of reductionist pastoral glorification is TEXTBOOK conservative.

Conservatism as defined in modern America is not environmentalist.

You know... one can bemoan excessive mediocrity without actually being a card-carrying Objectivist.

See also: Vonnegut, Kurt.

Most superhero movies are hella objectivist. I mean you're supposed to let the guy in the funny suit do whatever he wants because he's superpowered or well trained or whatever and nobody is ever revealed to be embezzling funds or meeting underage girls on the side.

I've always seen the "vigilante justice" aspect of the superhero genre to be conservative.  Ironically, in the 1940's conservatives decried it as anathema to conservative values like respecting law and order.

It's interesting to see how ideological labels can change.

Seriously.  The superheroes have to live in hiding and fear because the norms are jealous and eventually start killing them.  Did you even read the Cliff's Notes of Atlas Shrugged?

Or possibly Bird wasn't imitating Atlas Shrugged but, oh, I don't know, FUCKING WATCHMEN.

(...oh hey, any relation?  Because if he's your uncle or something then yeah people should probably stop arguing with you.)




...then the thread gets a little tl;dr for my poor DayQuil-addled brain, but:

The Rocky Horror Picture Show

...I'd say Rocky Horror has a pretty goddamned obvious political subtext.
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Thad

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2009, 04:48:10 PM »

These lists only encompass the past twenty-five years, so no To Kill A Mocking Bird, or Death Wish. Brazil made it onto both lists, yo.

Pity -- a couple years farther back and the liberal list could have used First Blood.
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Pacobird

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2009, 06:59:44 AM »

Conservatism as defined in modern America is not environmentalist.


Conservatism defined in pre-1960s England was anti-industrialist/pastoral, though environmentalism as we know it probably didn't occur to anybody at the time.

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Or possibly Bird wasn't imitating Atlas Shrugged but, oh, I don't know, FUCKING WATCHMEN.

Because Ozymandias is totally more sympathetic than Rorschach.

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(...oh hey, any relation?  Because if he's your uncle or something then yeah people should probably stop arguing with you.)

Sadly no, and no relation to Brandon Bird either, but man, wouldn't that change like pretty much everything about my interaction with this community if it were true?
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Classic

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2009, 07:27:03 AM »

:nyoro~n: All I can think would be different is that your knob would be polished to a mirror shine.
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Disposable Ninja

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2009, 08:41:45 AM »

Quote
Or possibly Bird wasn't imitating Atlas Shrugged but, oh, I don't know, FUCKING WATCHMEN.

Because Ozymandias is totally more sympathetic than Rorschach.

... What?
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Mongrel

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2009, 04:27:13 PM »

Sadly no, and no relation to Brandon Bird either, but man, wouldn't that change like pretty much everything about my interaction with this community if it were true?

Nope.
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Pacobird

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2009, 05:28:51 PM »

Sadly no, and no relation to Brandon Bird either, but man, wouldn't that change like pretty much everything about my interaction with this community if it were true?

Nope.

yeah, I guess I'd still probably hold pretty much all of you in contempt
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Royal☭

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2009, 06:48:59 PM »

You might like me if you got to know me.

Mongrel

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Re: Top 25 Liberal & Conservative Films
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2009, 07:00:07 PM »

Sadly no, and no relation to Brandon Bird either, but man, wouldn't that change like pretty much everything about my interaction with this community if it were true?

Nope.

yeah, I guess I'd still probably hold pretty much all of you in contempt

Clearly you need to change your avatar to something more contemptuous then.
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