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[Doom]

A) I didn't listen to the commentary shit-stick.

B) Listening to most of you I wouldn't believe that you knew it.

C) ESTABLISHING BASIS FOR MY TERRIBLE IDEA OF LIE-DOWN SNIPER RIFLE

[Mongrel]

Gentlemen, I submit for your review...

[Brentai]

You may as well just have the Spy hold one of a number of harmless things at random, all of which are actually guns.

[Bongo Bill]

Engineer's alternate buildings replace the entire set of buildings, rather than any single one. Here is what I came up with for a more teamwork-oriented and situational Engineer loadout.

Sentry replacement: Force Field Generator. Generates a spherical region through which (undisguised, uncloaked, possibly Bonk!ed) enemies and their bullets cannot pass. The range of the sphere increases as it levels up, but never matches the range of an ordinary Sentry. Any attack on the force field reduces the radius, and if it reaches the minimum the generator is destroyed, but it regenerates over time. The reduction in the radius is not directly proportional to the amount of damage done, but is balanced to make less effectual classes capable of taking one out. An Engineer repairing the force field trades metal in exchange for more quickly replenishing the radius. Enemies within the force field are not pushed back and can damage the generator, which will break it faster, and which will not automatically be undone, but will not diminish the radius of the field at all. It does not function while sapped. Enemy sentries may or may not automatically target force fields.

Teleporter replacement: Jump Pad. Pretty straightforward. You get a preview of the arc it'll send allies on. Only the Engineer that planted it can take falling damage from it. At level 2, it recharges instantly. At level 3, allies are immune to weapons fire while in flight, as with Bonk!, and if they hit an enemy in flight, that enemy is telefragged. Possibly, the angle can be adjusted prior to or after construction.

Dispenser replacement: Remote Control Terminal. One allied Engineer - but (possibly) not the Terminal's builder - can enter the Terminal at a time. That Engineer selects one of his own buildings, and can move the building around in real time. The Engineer is highly vulnerable during this time. The selected building continues to operate as normal while moving. If the building is destroyed while being remote-controlled, the Terminal is subject to recharge time, which can be hastened by whacking it (possibly costs metal). The higher the level of the Terminal, the faster the building moves. The speed might also be influenced by the type of building being controlled. At its fastest, it should go no faster than a spun-up Heavy. At level 2, the building gains the ability to make a small jump; at level 3, it gains rocket boosters that can take it as higher (maybe ridiculously high for the smaller buildings, if their speed matters at all). If a mobile force field generator squashes an enemy in a corner, that enemy will die. Mobile buildings cannot enter no-build zones, and they cannot travel through teleporters or jump pads, nor enter enemy force fields.

[Norondor]

having seen moving buildings in action i can say with authority that it is scary bad. also not too sure about the jump pad idea, as i don't know if it's really better than a teleporter except in the sense that it makes it easier for other, secondary engies to build in places that massively get on my tits (that fucking super-high platform on the second point of goldrush... )

However the idea of the shield generator is actually REALLY COOL. Kinda wonder how it could be rendered to keep it in-genre with the rest of the game, if only because the other super-science is generally low-key (at least as compared to a giant protoss shield bubble) but i rather dig the idea of a huge, obnoxious deflector shield that on its own can't actually kill anyone.

[Norondor]

Actually, as i was just defending the idea to Yyler during our daily 6AM brownie jam, two things occurred to me:

1) Maybe it should be hemi-spherical instead of a complete bubble, and the actual generator itself takes enormous damage per hit, allowing enemies who actually flank it to take it out quickly and prevent their team getting stonewalled?

2) How does this interact with the sniper? On the one hand, perhaps his bullets could pass through it so he can still get headshots (as the sniper is, assuming he has an angle to the engie, one of the best sentry killers). On the other hand, every kind of ordinance that can bypass the bubble makes it less valuable as a whole. It's something to think about.

[yyler]

if it was a wall that was hard to break but the engie could not repair it, i would like it more.

[Norondor]

How about he can repair the generator if it gets sapped/shot but the bubble doesn't grow except in its own good time

and the speed depends on the level of the generator

[yyler]

I like when we talk to each other over these forums instead of walking five feet or using aim

but that could also work. it all hinges on how fast the shield regenerates/dies

[Zaratustra]

rule of thumb for bad engineer buildings: can it be placed in front of the enemy spawn and completely stop the game for upwards of several minutes?

[yyler]

that applies to the sentry too

[yyler]

also, can you stand in your spawn and just break it because there is a cabinet full of infinite health there? i think you can but maybe not, i forget

[Doom]

It sounds like two heavies wading out would point-blank obliterate a spawn force-field.

Engineer can repair the generator, but he doesn't restore the field faster. At higher levels, it regenerates the field faster.

Vulnerable to sustained heavy fire, vulnerable to smart sniper, vulnerable to spies and vulnerable to sneaky/clever pyros/demos/soldiers/scouts would put this thing on par with the actual sentry.

Sniper rifle ignores the field, a zerg overwhelms it while it does some little bit of good, a spy can sap it, and anyone who can flank blows the thing away from it's ass end.

Applauding IRL.

Note: Jump Pad is also a fantastic idea in all aspects aside from the need for Valve to comb over every official map and remove exploit spots.

[MadMAxJr]

Fake teleporter entry of the enemy color that sets person standing on it on fire, then harmlessly destroys itself.  Claims to be a teleporter of a random engy on the other team, failing that, random name from that team.

Yes I realize people would just start shooting their entrances to check every time, shut up.

Wrench that uncloaks and undisguises spies.  Also has a bicycle rear-view mirror for some reason that gives you a small view of what's going on behind you.

Dispenser replacement: The Generator.  Does not heal, gives ammo, provides an extra 25% crit chance to people touching the beam.

[Crouton]

Wrench that uncloaks and undisguises spies. Also has a bicycle rear-view mirror for some reason that gives you a small view of what's going on behind you.

Better idea...

Tinfoil Hat: makes all allies, enemies, and buildings appear as spies.

edit: also causes you to hear spy emotes coming from behind you wherever you go.

[Brentai]

Wrench that uncloaks and undisguises spies.

A crit wrench already does all that, and for an added bonus, kills them.

[Royal☭]

Also we're trying to avoid weapons that A) Target a specific class and B) Make spies weaker than they already are.

[Bongo Bill]

Coming up with these, I was trying to think of ideas that would be more useful for the second Engineer than the first one. A force field, for instance, means that you've got an amazing position for a teammate's sentry. Since an Engineer with this loadout wouldn't get a proper dispenser, he'd have to rely on an ally's.

The way the remote control works, in order to create a real cheeseball combo - like a dispenser following a Heavy - then you need to have a second Engineer whose buildings can't directly threaten an enemy team. The cost is quite high, and using a moving building would create a vulnerability that is also a good way to counter the technique. If it needs further nerfing, say that mobile buildings can't be repaired at all. But I can see where the whole concept would be a can of worms.

Instead of the Jump Pad, how about a Speed Pad? Stand on it and you get charged up with super movement speed and become bulletproof, like a Bonk! for anybody, that lasts longer and boosts the speed more and doesn't have the cooldown. So the transportation isn't instantaneous, and the enemy can see you coming, and there's a limit to the range, and you can't get people to impossible places, but you don't have to worry about two buildings, there's more room for strategic placement, and anybody can teleport wherever they want.

Butterfly Knife replacement: Poisoned Knife. For the Spy that prefers to cloak after he stabs, rather than before. No instant kill from behind, but can score critical hits like an ordinary weapon. When hit, an enemy is poisoned; a gauge is shown on the screen indicating how badly poisoned you are. The gauge fills exponentially over time, and subsequent hits add more poison to it. Collecting a health pack reduces the poison level by a certain amount based on the size of the pack; being healed by a Medic reduces the poison level. You cannot be overhealed while poisoned. If the poison reaches 0, it is cured; if the poison meter fills up, the victim dies. For calibration, a single hit, if left unhealed, will kill an enemy in about five seconds.

[Crouton]

Most of these are meh.

(spy)Poison Dart Gun: No direct damage. Causes damage over time, does not wear off unless target gets some form of healing via medic/healthkit/cabinet. Very limited ammo.

(spy)Tranq Dart Gun: -25% damage, -25% fire rate, reduces target's runspeed by 50% for 5 secs (duration doesn't stack, so someone won't be permaslowed by being hit again before effect wears off), reduces speed by 75% on crit.

(soldier)Caltrops: target in area of effect loses 25 health immediately, another 25 over time, and suffers 50% runspeed reduction. Can effect up to 3 targets at the same time. Can be blown away like stickies. Dropping a second batch causes first one to disappear.

(demo)Single Malt: Thrown in an arc with taunt, same max range as heavy taunt, instant kill on hit.

(sniper)Boomerang: Thrown with taunt, again same max range as heavy, turns around after reaching max range, instant kill on hit. Long windup, and Sniper stands still until it returns.

[Kazz]

Most of these are meh.

WELL GET ON WITH IT MAN, I CAN NOT WAIT TO READ EM