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[Doom]

Bongo Bill we are sending you to Valve to save TF2

[Norondor]

Please throw Robin Walker off a cliff when you get there, or imprison him in one of Gabe Newell's dungeons

[Disposable Ninja]

Red Cyclone -- Heavy Weapons guys ditches all of his weapons and dons a pair of red briefs. His barehanded attacks become a kajillion times more powerful.

Kill enough opponents with the Red Cyclone and you get the Zangriefer achievement.

[McDohl]

I would pay infinity dollars for a Heavy costume for SF4 Zangief.

FINAL

ATOMIC

BUSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[François]

IT COSTS FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS TO WRESTLE THIS BEAR FOR TWELVE SECONDS

[Bongo Bill]

Sentry replacement: telesentry. You build a "base" somewhere, and a sentry equivalent to about level 1.5 appears in it. You can then build as many other "bases" as you want (or, like, up to seven of them, or some other large number). The single sentry will cycle through them in the order they were built, spending one second in each location before warping to the next (it will linger if it sees an enemy - it teleports after it has gone a full second without an enemy stepping into range). Damaging a base with no sentry in it will just damage that base, and if it is broken, it just means the sentry will skip that base. Shooting the sentry itself will damage it; if the sentry is broken, the base it's currently in also breaks. A sapper will damage the sentry and all the bases, but you can dislodge the sapper from any base, as with a teleporter. You will need to add a new base or build a new sentry on top of an existing base. When the sentry isn't built, it costs you 130 metal to build; when it is built, it costs 100 metal to add a new base. Your HUD will indicate the status of all bases, including which one the sapper was placed on, the location of the sentry in the system, etc. If an enemy is standing on top of a base when the sentry appears there, they get telefragged. Every base has a number, which you and your allies can see (it'll be like "Telesentry Base #3 built by Doomykins" or something like that). Damaged bases can be repaired from any base; the metal will go directly to the one that has the least health. The sentry can only be repaired by hitting it directly, however. The sentry cannot be upgraded; the entire system of bases can be upgraded all at once, but all it does is give them more health (and they all revert to level 1 if the sentry is destroyed, or any base, or... or something). Bases are louder than teleporters and telesentries are louder than regular sentries.

Possible: multiple engineers can create vast networks of telesentry bases. If you build a telesentry on top of an ally's base, your telesentry will cycle through all of his bases and all of yours (telesentries built on your own bases will only cycle through your own).

Trade-off: quickly cover multiple areas, but you run the risk of spreading yourself too thin, and you cannot achieve the raw firepower of a fixed sentry.

[Zaratustra]

put all seven in the same area and you have a sentry that dodges fire

[Bongo Bill]

A sentry that dodges fire but which can never reach level 2, cost you 725 metal to build, and is extra-vulnerable to splash damage effects, especially stickies. (Also, it doesn't warp when it's shooting at an enemy)

[Kayin]

Kayin's Targe Changes.

+Some Amount of Health. More then the Eyelander takes away!
+ NO FUCKING RESISTANCES OH GOD
+ 70% resistances while charging.
+ Possibly slowed by fire while charging?

[yyler]

I like the Targe, the reason being it increases the value of heavies, increases the value of shotguns, and increases the value of sentries. It also encourages pyros, often a devil-may-care class, to be a bit more practiced with their fire or use the shotgun. I feel like it also encourages medics to be a tad more offensive where possible, which is always good, because they are desperately unappreciated.

I admit I haven't played very much since the patch; enough to get the soldier unlocks (but not the gunboats) and the targe, though.

[Kayin]

That is stupid.

Example to be fair: TARGE USERS STILL HAVE GRENADE LAUNCHER. If I'm fighting the average melee slapdick, sure, shotgun. But yesterday Niku was playing Targe Demo. So heres where things get dumb -- NIKU CAN PLAY DEMO. So now as a good demo, it is my shotgun not against his Eyelander, blindly swinging from mid range -- but my shotgun vs his pills and at my shotgun range he can land those pills and I am quite crippled. Leave this countering shit to the support classes. Pyros also do not need anything to make them WORSE.

Also to be fair, the Targe is not overpowered or anything. It is easily worse then the sticky launcher. But from a game design standpoint. It doesn't damage game results, it damages player experience. Introducing arbitrary local imbalance, especially among the main fighting classes seems totally silly. The local imbalances otherwise exist where they make sense (Spy vs Snipers and Engineers to prevent them from just sitting back, uncontested). Some local imbalance is also fine in general. A set up demo will do favorably against a soldier, a soldier with high ground can do big splash to make your approach bad, etc -- but just to be like "YOUR WEAPONS ARE NOT AS GOOD AGAINST ME FOR NO RAISIN" is not only dumb, but totally not interesting.

[yyler]

It doesn't make pyros worse, it makes bad pyros worse. There may not always be an answer to what someone presents you, and you may have to fall back to teammates. I could be wrong, like I said, but I honestly don't feel anything in this update is imbalanced except the inexplicable range of the Eyelander.

I don't really have anything to say to what you edited in because I may agree with it. That is why the Sandman has been screwed with so much, after all.

[Kayin]

It doesn't make pyros worse, it makes bad pyros worse.

Are you saying that having to fall back on their shotgun and fight at a disadvantage doesn't make them worse? It makes pyros worse in general. It just makes bad pyros extra worse.

But I mean sure, you may or may not agree and don't know know yet. But let me explain this a little more. Not having a definite answer at all times is perfectly fine and is desirable in fact, BUT I don't think it should be exacerbated among the 'fighting' classes. The advantages and disadvantages among them should be situational, not definite things (Spy > Engineer).

If I run head long into a medic'ed Heavy, I have made a mistake and was punished accordingly. When I encounter a targe demo in a 'neutral' situation, I am at a disadvantage, yet I have made no mistake. I am a fighting class (Soldier) and I am supposed to be there. The Demo's resistance advantage isn't even situational. I am always going to do relatively minor, side weapon damage.

This would be more interesting if say, a demo count activate a charge and that deflected a rocket! That would be cool in fact! Or if the resistance only applied to damage sustained in the Demo's forward cone (leaving them vulnerable to back attacks, or allowing me to rocket jump to attack them from above.

What Valve did was just artificially neuter 3 classes (this includes normal demos, who get the worst of it) against Targe demos. This is uninspired, boring and causes undesirable interclass annoyances. I think it damages the degree of autonomy the some of the classes are supposed to have... and while this is a team game, it's good to have classes that can act rather autonomously due to a well rounded nature. This helps make sure there is a class for everyone!

The changes above, or say, the 'puff charge' are more interesting dynamic. They create situations where attacking in a situation is the wrong idea, but allow for better counter situations. A soldier with a demo approaching down a long stretch is a situation that would optimally require more care or repositioning, but encountering a demo while I have the high ground or in a tight area can be advantageous!

This Targe this is more of a gripe then a real problem but I do think it's inelegant and does take away something (if only the tiniest little) from the game, for basically no real interesting gain.  Making classes overcome disadvantages or problems through interesting capabilities (Pyro puffer! Jarate! All sorts of cool items!) is awesome. Pigeon-holing resistances onto an item to try and make it's concept more viable on the other hand is just poor design. Improving the concept of the melee kit is far more desirable.

I think some of the views on the Targe are weighted by the fact that targe users are generally BAD PLAYERS.

(also sorry I'm running my mouth more but it makes me think about the game more in depth so I like doing it!)

[Niku]

I would love the "resisting while charging" thing if charging was changed to be quickly burstable.  You can start and stop whenever you like, with only that amount if bar used, but you still need a nearly full bar/charge for a crit.  Also they should fix the shield slam.  But making it burstable to time your resistances would give it an interesting skill ceiling both in charging through attacks without wasting much bar, as well as offensively giving you zigzaggy approach options at the cost of crit damage.

[Kayin]

Oh wow, that burstable charging thing sounds super good, but in an awesome, fun way. BRONTOFORUMUS FOR NEW VALVE DEVELOPMENT TEAM.

[yyler]

I think the shotgun is undervalued but I guess I am a minority.

I think that Valve just wanted to make something that people would want to take over the sticky launchers and not just consider a joke unlock, and it's definitely possible they overstepped and made something too good or boring in some ways. I'll admit I would rather have exactly what Niku described because I think it's more interesting, but I am not sure I care enough to (for example) post about it online--not to say I think this is stupid, it just didn't cross my mind as a huge issue. The question is can Valve change a weapon to be more interesting without making it necessarily a buff or nerf? They have a particularly vocal fanbase made up primarily of retards, so it's hard to say. They've done it to weapons that have been around a while, like the syringe gun and blutsauger, but a weapon this new may give way to tumult.

[Mongrel]

It doesn't make pyros worse, it makes bad pyros worse.

Are you saying that having to fall back on their shotgun and fight at a disadvantage doesn't make them worse? It makes pyros worse in general. It just makes bad pyros extra worse.

But I mean sure, you may or may not agree and don't know know yet. But let me explain this a little more. Not having a definite answer at all times is perfectly fine and is desirable in fact, BUT I don't think it should be exacerbated among the 'fighting' classes. The advantages and disadvantages among them should be situational, not definite things (Spy > Engineer).

If I run head long into a medic'ed Heavy, I have made a mistake and was punished accordingly. When I encounter a targe demo in a 'neutral' situation, I am at a disadvantage, yet I have made no mistake. I am a fighting class (Soldier) and I am supposed to be there. The Demo's resistance advantage isn't even situational. I am always going to do relatively minor, side weapon damage.

This would be more interesting if say, a demo count activate a charge and that deflected a rocket! That would be cool in fact! Or if the resistance only applied to damage sustained in the Demo's forward cone (leaving them vulnerable to back attacks, or allowing me to rocket jump to attack them from above.

What Valve did was just artificially neuter 3 classes (this includes normal demos, who get the worst of it) against Targe demos. This is uninspired, boring and causes undesirable interclass annoyances. I think it damages the degree of autonomy the some of the classes are supposed to have... and while this is a team game, it's good to have classes that can act rather autonomously due to a well rounded nature. This helps make sure there is a class for everyone!

The changes above, or say, the 'puff charge' are more interesting dynamic. They create situations where attacking in a situation is the wrong idea, but allow for better counter situations. A soldier with a demo approaching down a long stretch is a situation that would optimally require more care or repositioning, but encountering a demo while I have the high ground or in a tight area can be advantageous!

This Targe this is more of a gripe then a real problem but I do think it's inelegant and does take away something (if only the tiniest little) from the game, for basically no real interesting gain.  Making classes overcome disadvantages or problems through interesting capabilities (Pyro puffer! Jarate! All sorts of cool items!) is awesome. Pigeon-holing resistances onto an item to try and make it's concept more viable on the other hand is just poor design. Improving the concept of the melee kit is far more desirable.

I think some of the views on the Targe are weighted by the fact that targe users are generally BAD PLAYERS.

(also sorry I'm running my mouth more but it makes me think about the game more in depth so I like doing it!)

I would love the "resisting while charging" thing if charging was changed to be quickly burstable.  You can start and stop whenever you like, with only that amount if bar used, but you still need a nearly full bar/charge for a crit.  Also they should fix the shield slam.  But making it burstable to time your resistances would give it an interesting skill ceiling both in charging through attacks without wasting much bar, as well as offensively giving you zigzaggy approach options at the cost of crit damage.

  to both of these. I was kind of thinking the same thing about the Targe, but didn't really feel like about bitching openly about it, because it's hardly broken, it's just kinda dumb.

It's like someone at Valve was like "Hey, Soldiers have no hard counters... ... ... Let's make one!~"

[Kayin]

Oh hey don't get me wrong, I agree to a degree. Not taking advantage of your shotgun is foolish and I pick up tons of spare kills with it. But it is no rocket launcher or flame thrower in most situations. It's not even a weak weapon. IT HURTS! It also allows you to be a viable threat before reloading and I also sometimes even reload it before I do my rocket launcher. But it is still outclassed by a Demo who got skill with dem' pills. Both weapon are good at the same ranges and one does a whole lot more damage!

dumb

okay yeah thats pretty much the word I was looking for.

[Bongo Bill]

Item for any class: flip shoes. After jumping, you can double-jump to do a backflip, much in the style of Richter Belmont. (For Scouts, the backflip activates by jumping after doing a double-jump) It gains you a very small amount of altitude, but the main thing is that it sends you backwards faster than you can run, conveniently escaping melee range with naught but a double-tap of the ol' spaced bar. Not intended to be a viable alternative to anything.

Spy sapper replacement: electromagnet. It disables buildings from a pretty good range, has a conical area of effect, and does more damage than a regular sapper, but the damage lasts only as long as you are using it, and the disability only lasts for a second or two longer (long enough to backstab then switch back and finish the job, say). You can move around while using it, but not as quickly as normal. Point it at ammo boxes and dropped weapons to draw them towards you. To defend his buildings, the Engineer must kill you, rather than giving him the illusion that knocking the sapper off will accomplish anything. This vulnerability is the counter to its increased ability to sap.

Heavy buff: when spun up, very nearby ammo is similarly slowly drawn towards the Heavy.

Spy needs a custom animation for when you suicide via console or class-switching, wherein he takes a cyanide capsule.

Bat replacement: Bonkscalibur, the legendary baseball bat of King "Babe Ruth" Arthur, or some other ridiculous portmanteau of a legendary sword and a legendary baseball player. This is the weapon of an honorable warrior, and it cannot be returned to its sheath without first having drawn blood. Does more damage (either it does damage as if it were another class' default melee weapon, or regular hits become mini-crits against enemies with melee weapons out, or something), but if you miss, it does damage to the user equivalent to the damage of a normal aluminum bat hit. You cannot switch to another weapon until you have hit either an opponent or yourself. (This limitation does not apply if you have the weapon out for less than a full second without attacking) It is possible to kill yourself in this way, and an achievement should be associated with it.

Revolver replacement: poison dart gun. Slow to reload and always does exactly one point of damage, but its hallucinogenic projectiles (which travel at about the speed and arc of the needle gun) send the enemy into the "panic" state (can't fire) for one second, or three seconds on a crit. Single action like the flare gun; the reload time should be such that you can just barely keep firing on an enemy to keep them afraid of you.

Medigun replacement: healing laser. A conical area of effect gives health to all allies within it. It must be aimed and heals single allies more slowly than the regular medigun, but can heal multiple allies. Ubercharge: all living allies and the user instantly reach maximum overheal, and the overheal doesn't decay for ten seconds. Allies who respawn during those ten seconds spawn with this buff applied as well.

[Doom]

Pyro protocol for Targe Demo is to use the Poofer and the Axecutioner. Mostly because I agree that the vast majority of Eyelander Demos are awful players.