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[Doom]

Or we could just determine that any attempt to address the situation is futile because people might disagree with us and kill the dialogue entirely.

Hey, if it's accurate. The power that food industries wield in US politics is insane.

[Pacobird]

I guess I don't consider telling a portion of the population than they are "self-destructive and harmful to society" to be the best solution to the problem, or that even having such an attitude is at all constructive.  Maybe we should try and encourage poor people to get rich by telling them how lazy and stupid they are.  When you look at a problem and you're only way of thinking is to start deriding a person for their station in life, you help no one and you accomplish nothing.

My original post in this thread was to underscore why my initial reaction to fat people is "wow gross", which is something completely different than what we're talking about now, which is how to address the obesity epidemic.  Obviously, a national, institutional campaign, even at it's most shaming, is going to be "being fat is unhealthy and gross" and not "you personally are unhealthy and gross". 

And really, why shouldn't we treat obesity as a destructive behavior that is extremely harmful to both the self and society, the same as drug use or dangerous sexual behavior?  Because fatties might cry?

That's not to say that some fat people are personally irresponsible, but to make the blanket statement towards all of them is bigoted and shows you have only a limited worldview.  We could try encouraging people who are in situations where eating and living healthy is difficult to just stop being so fat, or we could try and look for exterior factors that contribute to the problem.

We are aware of the external problems, which you summed up nicely.  Which do you think would be an easier thing to suggest to someone affected by those factors: to stop being so fat, or stop being so poor?

Taxing high-fructose corn syrup is all well and good but "politically unrealistic" does not even begin to touch it.

Or we could just determine that any attempt to address the situation is futile because people might disagree with us and kill the dialogue entirely.

Yes, we could do that, or maybe we could concentrate on that which we are certain to be able to accomplish, and in the smoking example, the behavior saw its biggest decline in the 1980s, long before we were taxing the shit out of it.  SOMETHING is causing people to smoke drastically less, and unless you've got statistics, the "smoking is disgusting and will fucking kill you" tack the Reagan administration took seems to me as or more likely to be the cause than higher taxes, because treating people as rational economic actors when dealing with a habit with literally zero redeeming factors to begin with seems a little silly.  The whole POINT of pathological behavior is that it ignores cost/benefit analyses.

Anyway, you're talking like it wouldn't be possible to address the problem through both taxation and institutionalized shaming.

[Bongo Bill]

treating people as rational economic actors when dealing with a habit with literally zero redeeming factors to begin with seems a little silly.  The whole POINT of pathological behavior is that it ignores cost/benefit analyses.

I agree with you, but taxing the consumer is a needlessly confining view of the taxation dimension to possible solutions. If there's to be taxation, provide a combination of new taxes on "bad" ingredients, combined with tax credits on "good" ingredients so as not to be excessively punitive, and suddenly it becomes cost-effective to make existing products healthier. Some people will then have one less habit to change.

I'm not entirely convinced that obesity is a sufficient threat to the public health to warrant gubberment intervention on that scale, but as long as we're talking in hypotheticals, that's how you could approach it.

[Brentai]

Most overweight people are aware of their problem and actively trying to counter it.  See: the original basis of this thread.

The problem with this entire conversation is what I've already fucking said: Nobody takes the time to differentiate between "being fat" and actual hyperobesity.

[King Klown]

Being that I'm a Culinary Major and these issues become a main topic in classes like "Culinary History" AKA HISTORY OF FOOD LETS MAKE YOU HUNGRY

From what I garner, its a triple problem.

• Economic Status
• Availability of Time
• The Individual

Each one of those has a fuck ton you can throw under. Iron_Mongrel makes some of the best points into why the fat people started popping up more. Eating healthy is not cheap. If you go out and buy fresh vegetables, fruits and meat every week, you're spending a lot more than you would if you bought frozen pizza, insta-meals, and snack food. And do any of you ever really see anything besides meat and junk-shit on sale? I'll be fucked if I can remember when I saw a good deal on vegetables. Which now that I think about it, probably because its all seasonal.

Shopping healthy at Costco with bulk sales still gets close to being the same amount of junk-shit I would buy at a regular place like Giant, Shoppers, ect. And the fresh stuff also doesn't last as long, so if I don't eat it or it does go bad, that is money gone and wasted. And how many people have the time to budget and buy for what they need in a week/2weeks as opposed to being safe and buying the undying stuff.

As to what you wanna do about solving the problem, well. Come on, who hasn't seen the fat guy running and then fingered the chocolate bar your holding, wondering how much you could make. 

When companies stop making such a fortune off of cheap, nutrient light, undying food.
When people no longer feel bad for how they look/feel and binge eat.
When people arn't forced to pick between unhealthy and healthy because of cost.
When WoW is no longer around.

When those four three things are met, you'll still be faced with people having a choice of doing something active or playing a video game/watching T.V.

Most overweight people are aware of their problem and actively trying to counter it.  See: the original basis of this thread.

But what about the ones in massive self-denial.

Pun intended.

[King Klown]

Most overweight people are aware of their problem and actively trying to counter it.  See: the original basis of this thread.

The problem with this entire conversation is what I've already fucking said: Nobody takes the time to differentiate between "being fat" and actual hyperobesity.

Whats fat and whats hyperobesity to you? I know what hyperobesity is and I hate people who are that for reasons other than diabetes. any medical reason that does not involve their hurt feelings.

[Brentai]

If you're a big round person, you're just fat.  Be proud of it.

If you've got visible rolls of flesh hanging off you, then it's time for a fucking diet.

[Mongrel]

Hey guys, Hot Tip of the week!: Depending exclusively on an overall increase in personal responsibility has pretty much been a complete and utter wash for, oh, just about every society of the past 5000 years.

[King Klown]

Hey guys, Hot Tip of the week!: Depending on increases in personal responsibility has pretty much been a complete and utter failure for, oh, just about every society of the past 5000 years.

Which was why I said

When those four three things are met, you'll still be faced with people having a choice of doing something active or playing a video game/watching T.V.

[Pacobird]

Hey guys, Hot Tip of the week!: Depending exclusively on an overall increase in personal responsibility has pretty much been a complete and utter wash for, oh, just about every society of the past 5000 years.

Yes, that is why we have this wonderful thing called "ostracizing people and making them feel like shit if they don't do what we want them to".

[Bongo Bill]

If you wish to change something that is a consequence of people's behavior, regardless of whether they understand "consequences," you must consider the motivations for the behavior.

However, you should be very careful, in so doing, not to step on the toes of the people who do understand and take responsibility for the consequences of their actions, because the stupid exist to be exploited by the intelligent you run the risk of discouraging responsibility. Just because personal responsibility cannot be relied on as a force for social* improvement doesn't mean that an increase in personal responsibility is not, itself, a social improvement.

*maybe certain other kinds of improvement

[Mongrel]

I have found that general hardship, a natural resistance against excessive rationalization, and good parenting lead all to solid increases in personal responsibility.

These are all incredibly difficult to force in any institutional way. The third option is generally the most feasible one, whereby you increase the amount of time a parent may spend with their children. Though even then, nothing is guaranteed.

However, the last 30 years have actually seen a massive decline in the amount of time parents have been spending with their children. We can only begin to guess at the amount of damage we've done to ourselves in this way.

[King Klown]

Sad but true. I was surprised the first few times when teachers would ask "How many of you eat dinner with your family?" and I was one of two or none to raise their hand.

[Brentai]

one of two or none

If nobody else eats dinner with their family, Wiseman raises his hand infinity times.

[Detonator]

If you've got visible rolls of flesh hanging off you, then it's time for a fucking diet.

Another problem is diets in general.  There are tons of people who want to lose weight and are suckered into diets that promise weight loss with no change or effort.  The idea of "a diet" is flawed: if you change your behavior for only a set amount of time or a set amount of weight lost, you will inevitably gain it back when you revert to your old habits.  Many people don't realize you shouldn't start a diet, you should permanently change your existing diet.  Also exercise.  Weight training is the best way to enhance your metabolism.

This is kind of a tangent, but I think it would help the public greatly if this information was more commonly known.

[Mongrel]

It is quite commonly known. The problem is not the availability of information, but people's desire for the 'quick and easy path.

That, and there being few things in the universe more powerful than self-delusion.

[Lady Duke]

I'll tell you an even bigger problem with diets.  A) the body doesn't do well if you are yo-yo dieting because it'll just end up making you fatter than you started, which is a reason dieting often doesnt work, and B) the more you diet, the more likely you are to develop an eating disorder. 

Also, there is such a thing as Binge eating disorder, where they just can't help but dissociate and eat tons and tons and then they don't do compensatory behaviors to get rid of that food.  It's an eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia, but is obviously more associated with being overweight.  And actually, many bulimics are heavy people, not thin.  So don't just say it's an impulse problem.  There's obviously some bigger problem than "oh my god, I feel like eating so I'm just going to eat and then wonder why I'm so fat."  It's insensitive.

[Brentai]

Well, yeah, but I figured the "it doesn't matter how little you eat if you don't ever fucking move" rant should be saved for another day.

But for now, as a general rule, anybody who promises a diet wherein you lose more than 2 pounds per week, ever, should have their heads cut off.

[Lady Duke]

Agree.   Dieting is a crock.  I am vehemently opposed to dieting.  Just exercise and maybe eat better, maybe.  Just a little better.

[Brentai]

No, a lot better.

Think of dieting as the Broken IWIN Button and exercise as the Broken IWIN Button Repair Bot.  They're both absolutely useless until you get the other.