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[Brentai]

Anything that gimps the rifle's ability to crit is going to make the Heavy's day, so.  The reason why "no headshots" pops up in alternate suggestions is just because it feels so... inevitable.

[Mongrel]

Anything that gimps the rifle's ability to crit is going to make the Heavy's day, so.  The reason why "no headshots" pops up in alternate suggestions is just because it feels so... inevitable.

Well, see, if you're really concerned about heavies, it's not like they're taking away the stock sniper rifle. Also, as mentioned previously, there has been a real dropoff in Heavy use in the past month or two, though I'm not entirely sure why. I seldom see more than one on a team anymore.

And the other reason that No Headshots keeps coming up is because it's one of the few ways you can make a sniper 'pay' for getting something 'extra' out of their sniper rifle. Doesn't mean that that's what will actually happen, but it's a more obvious conjecture than several of the alternatives.

[Brentai]

I guess Heavy's no fun to play anymore now that there are two classes who see your big peanut head and lick their lips.

Giving a no headshot alternative would theoretically lessen this for Heavies, though in actuality probably not, since the existing crackshots will very likely want to keep their "point at a big guy and he dies" ability.

[Mongrel]

I guess Heavy's no fun to play anymore now that there are two classes who see your big peanut head and lick their lips.

Giving a no headshot alternative would theoretically lessen this for Heavies, though in actuality probably not, since the existing crackshots will very likely want to keep their "point at a big guy and he dies" ability.

Precisely. I think that making the class more accessible is a perfectly laudable goal.

On the other hand, the Scout update seemed to cater more to highly skilled players than to make it more accessible. FAN jump tricks and Sandman showboating can hardly be called n00b-friendly. Maybe the unskilled players just have to be content with PYRO 4 EVAH?

I mean, now that I think about it, it really is all up in the air what angle Valve will take. It sure would be nice though if something was done to lessen the incidence of "bad sniper is bad... and is also half your team".

[Bal]

Heavy is just fine. The Sandman nerf fixed everything that was wrong with it, while maintaining it's intended purpose. Additionally, not that many scouts still use it. I do agree that he doesn't need any more counters, and I suspect the sniper may get something that will either provide an alternative to the headshot, or a non-instant kill effect upon headshot.

[Brentai]

Wasn't saying there's anything wrong with Heavy so much as people don't like to play him anymore.  Poor guy rarely gets the honorable death he deserves; it's always some shitfuck with a headshot, or a baseball, or a knife between your ribs that gets you.  It can be very annoying.

Again questioning the logic of a non-instant kill effect on headshot, because what the hell kind of effect are you going to take over an instant kill?  Or a 5-times-out-of-9 instant kill, as the case technically is.

[Mongrel]

Agreed that I don't think heavy needs a boost. I just think he doesn't need another counter either.

Between that and a desire to make the Sniper a little more n00b friendly, I am hoping for an unlockable that gravitates to 'less absolute power, in exchange for something neat'.

Actually, I'm liking the Blood In The Water idea more and more. You're trading crits for a guaranteed trickle of damage over time (like fire), making the loss of headshots less bad. The thematic 'trail' just adds a layer of tactical and flavourful coolness.

[Bal]

I have no idea what you could give, though you have to remember that a headshot isn't an instant kill all the time. If you presented the sniper with a somewhat less powerful but guaranteed effect, it could do the trick. Again, the extra weapons are usually situational, or more apt for a different style of play. I still use Sasha, because I don't feel like the slow is sufficient to be worth trading off the damage, but at the same time I have seen heavies absolutely dominate with Natascha.

[Mongrel]

Natascha is often misunderstood as a weapon used by defending Heavies to keep other players off points or the cart, but really, if you want to keep someone off a point the better option is to just kill them.

The real purpose of Natascha is to keep melee classes the FUCK AWAY FROM YOU. This is a lot more useful if you are exceptionally good at tracking, so again we have a case of an unlockable that rewards skill.

EDIT: In that vein, the sniper is a curious thing, because there is no possible way to reward a sniper any more highly than the game already does. What else do you want besides a one-shot kill? A bullet that kills every player whose head it passes through?

[yyler]

What else do you want besides a one-shot kill?

An aimbot

[Mongrel]

Okay.

Forget what you want to see in the sniper patch. Here's a number of (hopefully) relevant points.

- Valve likes to see all the classes being played as it encourages diversity of gameplay and makes games more interesting. It also increases balance by making sure no class can prance aeround without fear of their counter showing up.
- Valve tends to do everything they can to make things noob-friendly without actually going to far as to alienate skilled players.
- Currently, Sniper is underplayed due to a difficulty curve that isn't so much a curve as it is a staircase of one step that's ten floors high. This is not unfair, as it is the nature of the class, but it still causes it to be underplayed.
- There is very little doubt in my mind that Valve does NOT want to increase the incidence of "five snipers on team, none of whom can hit the broad side of a barn that has been converted to a strip club and covered entirely in giant glowing neon signs". 
- Sniper is a high risk/reward class like spy.
- It has been very rightly pointed out that sniper is the 'targeted removal' class.
- Heavy has been kind of over-countered lately and does not need another hit against him (relevant, because sniper is the most direct counter to heavy).
 
What I would hope for is a patch that continues the theme of high risk/reward, but perhaps de-emphasizes split second twich-city skills so much. This may mean a partial decrease in risk/reward ratios (like the hunting rifle, 'no crits, but uses a clip' type stuff), or it may mean something else entirely.

I just had another thought regarding the sniper's natural balances: The sniper's true defining features are:

- He trades high damage to individual targets by sacrificing all ability to deal damage to multiple targets. Lone Wolf is a very apt descriptor.
- The high risk/reward thing I already mentioned.

Sooooo...

[Brentai]

Well, currently, there are a couple types of Snipers:

* Standard Snipers that spend most of their time scoped, wait for their charge to build, and carefully headshot their targets.
* Twitch Snipers who try to scopefire as many shots as they can as quickly as possible, relying on relatively reliable headshots to bag their kills against lower HP classes.
* Duel Snipers who pretty much exist to kill other Snipers.
* Ambush Snipers who craftily pick out secluded and unexpected hiding spots, quickly assassinate targets who aren't expecting it, and move on before anybody notices.
* Crazy-ass instascopeshot Combat Snipers.
* Assault Snipers who like to capture or defend points armed with nothing but their machetes.  Some of us are honestly a lot better at this than we'll ever be at actual Sniping (*cough*).

The rifle as it is right now is essentially built for the Standard Sniper, who charges, aims, and headshots.  Duel Snipers are the scum of the Earth, and Combat and Assault Snipers are basically the lunatic fringe of the playerbase.  So ideally, the alternate Rifle should cater to Twitch and Ambush Snipers.

So looking at it that way, it may not be such a hot idea to remove headshots, but instead remove the charge.  This is sort of a scary road to go down because the charge is there for a reason, and it's bloody brilliant, but it may simply be the best way to go.  In return, give it a bonus for Snipers who elect to use it in creative or unforeseen ways.  One idea that may or may not be completely horrible is moving the critical hit area from the head to the entire back, allowing the Sniper to punish people who try to turn and run, or move too far into your area, or simply not notice you there.  It turns the class into a sort of shitty visible Spy, but would certainly break up the dynamic of "stand near spawn, point, and click."

NEW REPLIES

Okay.  The other use for Natascha is to make damned sure the person you're shooting dies; if you're firing Sasha you'll do a lot of damage but the fucker might move out of optimal range before you're done with them.  If you've got a lock with Natascha, they're fucking fried.

[Bal]

I would counter that, if I've got a lock with Sasha, they never get the chance to run.

[Mongrel]

Abmush Snipers are something else it would be nice to encourage, but the problem is that there are several maps and map types that make that playstyle all-but-impossible.

I don't know, if I as making it for myself and myself alone, the uncreative choice would be to make a scope with a wider feild of view while reducing the insta-kill (by reducing either charge or crit) in payment.  But that would just be to mask my deficiencies. As for what we'll really be getting, I have no clue.

I would counter that, if I've got a lock with Sasha, they never get the chance to run.

RUN, COWARDS!

[yyler]

They are bringing out more maps.

But I think that twitch snipers are the pro snipers and we don't really need to help them.

[Zaratustra]

Natascha is the fucking pyro bane more than anything. Usually I ignore the heavy on my way to torch the juicy, juicy medic, but a natascha heavy can just make me slloooooow so I never get there.

[Catloaf]

Hint on Sniper's new weapon

In an effort to reduce some of the aggravation that other players feel towards the Sniper, we chose the goal of designing an unlockable that encouraged the Sniper to get a little closer to his target.

I have no idea of what it'll be, but It sounds to be totally awesome to me and my Pyromaniacal ways.  Sure it will give people even less of a reason to use the flaregun but, it means the fuckers will actually end up dying in more proportional levels.

[Brentai]

Past the update weekend though that only helps if the Sniper doesn't just keep doing what he's already doing with the default rifle.

[Saturn]

The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating.

Argument against the sandman?

[Doom]

If you terrible players need something to keep the argument going, I guess.