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Author Topic: Your Job: The Movie  (Read 177874 times)

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Royal☭

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2580 on: March 27, 2013, 06:21:47 PM »

You rent, right?  A, move closer if you're hired.

I wouldn't see it as so simple, though. The biggest issue with that is that the rent near Company A might be significantly higher, enough to offset the benefits and pay increase. Though that might also correlate with things to do and closer amenities. Which could also be a double-edged sword. A lower rent would mean a lower density of things like grocery stores, parks, post offices, movie theaters, bars, things to do in general. Which might end up with him having to make a 35-minute drive every time he wants to have a night out. This issue is why America has such long commutes in the first place.

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2581 on: March 27, 2013, 07:12:00 PM »

You rent, right?  A, move closer if you're hired.

But I don't WANT to live up on that end of town again.  I'm pretty happy with Tempe.  Though we don't know where my wife's going to be working in the fall yet.  Could be she'll be closer to that location, could be she'll be even farther.  Her best leads so far are east of here, while A is west.  I won't know by Friday, obviously, but educated guess says if we move closer to job A we'll be moving farther from her job.

How big is the pay difference, really? Like, is "A few bucks" $18 vs $15 or $14 vs $10, or what?

Signed an NDA and not really comfortable discussing pay in public.  But, keeping it vague: if I accept the lowest-paying of the three jobs, it will still be a better hourly wage than I've ever earned.  All three positions pay better than any of the numbers you just mentioned.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2582 on: March 27, 2013, 07:17:32 PM »

I don't actually need to know real numbers, I'm just trying to get a sense of proportion (which, I figure you gathered). Like, "a few bucks more" is not a significant variable if we're we're talking relative differences that are less than 10%. 10% or more difference in pay, well, you'll start to notice that.

Though it's starting to sound to me like you've made up your mind and just want to make sure you're not missing anything obvious. Which is absolutely okay!

But how about the potential job satisfaction?  I don't think any NDA prevents you talking about what you think might happen there?
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Brentai

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2583 on: March 27, 2013, 07:29:47 PM »

I haven't heard you guys say anything about C.  I assume you're not counting what happens if you get C.  If you're not going to chain yourself to any of these places for the rest of your life, then resume padding is probably the best idea in the long run.

Otherwise, A sounds like :itsatrap:.  Take B.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2584 on: March 27, 2013, 07:54:08 PM »

He also seems to be against C for the lack of security. But it's true that if he wants to shop around later for (potentially) better deals then the prestige of C matters.

Though in my experience, it's not the company that you work for so much as it is the position you held. Which may bring B and C closer together in that regard.
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Joxam

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2585 on: March 27, 2013, 08:56:02 PM »

Honestly B seems like the only one that is worth it.

The drop in pay is probably negated by the seventy mile round trip for A (don't just count gas into the expense, also count having to change your oil about ever two months, tires every two and some change years and all that jazz) and they're the only one that has already budgeted keeping all of you guys on and that seems a lot more secure than, "We can only keep one but you're in the lead", which, from experience, might just be something they're telling everyone to increase productivity and competition.
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Thad

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2586 on: March 27, 2013, 09:40:32 PM »

I don't actually need to know real numbers, I'm just trying to get a sense of proportion (which, I figure you gathered). Like, "a few bucks more" is not a significant variable if we're we're talking relative differences that are less than 10%. 10% or more difference in pay, well, you'll start to notice that.

The increase of A over B is right about 10%.

Though it's starting to sound to me like you've made up your mind and just want to make sure you're not missing anything obvious. Which is absolutely okay!

I suppose that's probably true.  And truth be told my wife's probably more important in terms of planning things out than you guys are.  And she's right about there with me -- B sounds good but we'll probably second-guess ourselves a bit before all's said and done.

But how about the potential job satisfaction?  I don't think any NDA prevents you talking about what you think might happen there?

A is exactly the same work I've been doing for the past 4+ years.  It's a Windows 7 rollout.  It's decent enough work and I'm good at it; the quotas they ran by me suggested it's probably even going to be low-stress aside from the traffic part -- like I'll either have downtime or get ahead of schedule.

Buuut, like I say, it's the work I've been doing for years and I hate the idea of being stuck doing desktop support forever.  It's the job that's most like what I've been doing and least like what I want to do long-term.

Also -- I think I mentioned this at first but not in the comparison -- A starts out as 8-5 for the first month, but then for the next 5 it's 12-8.  Which means less traffic and less heat but also probably less time to see my wife or do general daytime tasks.

B is Web design but it's using some kind of in-house template.  The phone interview did not involve any technical questions, it was entirely about how fast I could work, how comfortable I'd be using an in-house template instead of the raw code I'm used to, and how I'd deal with angry customers.  (Which is weird because they also told me I would not be interacting directly with customers, that that's another guys job and he'll tell me what the customers want.)  All this suggests to me that they're a lot more concerned with quantity than quality and aren't looking for someone terribly proficient.  Which is kinda my impression of the company and why I didn't go to work for them as a phone tech when I had the chance 7 years ago.  (More on that in a bit.)

C is tough to gauge.  It could either be the most dynamic of the three or the most repetitive.  It involves testing software across various platforms (Windows, Mac, Android), setting up a test bench and automated scripts, that kind of thing.

Otherwise, A sounds like :itsatrap:.  Take B.

You know what's funny?  Seven years ago I had a choice between going to work at B (different job, same company) or a job up in north Phoenix, 2 or 3 miles from where A is.

On the one hand, I made the wrong call.  On the other, A is offering me ten dollars more an hour than that job did and will almost certainly be substantially easier than that one was.

He also seems to be against C for the lack of security. But it's true that if he wants to shop around later for (potentially) better deals then the prestige of C matters.

I don't consider any of them secure.  I am definitely considering the relative risks of "Definitely 12 months but no more than 18", "Definitely 6 months and possibly permanent", and "Definitely 2 months and the likeliest of the 3 to be permanent".  I'm sure there's a game theory solution.

Though in my experience, it's not the company that you work for so much as it is the position you held. Which may bring B and C closer together in that regard.

C's probably got the best job title, too, even though it's the worst pay.  It's that prestigious a company.

(My uncle worked there back around the turn of the century.  I think it was about 6 months.  It was still the pinnacle of his career in the computer industry.  He's an art teacher now.)

(don't just count gas into the expense, also count having to change your oil about ever two months, tires every two and some change years and all that jazz)

Believe me, I know.  I had a sudden and unexpected radiator replacement on Monday.  Wife had to get a new car just a few months ago, and mine's approaching 110,000 miles.  I'm VERY aware of the potential wear and tear of a 70-mile-a-day round trip.

and they're the only one that has already budgeted keeping all of you guys on and that seems a lot more secure than, "We can only keep one but you're in the lead", which, from experience, might just be something they're telling everyone to increase productivity and competition.

Yeah, it's not the first time I've been told that.

Hell, I've had guys tell me that and be perfectly sincere about it.  The guys at the insurance company I worked for 2008-2010 were doing their damnedest not just to get me hired but to get me transferred to desktop architecture where my skills wouldn't be wasted on opening boxes and counting RAM.  But they couldn't get the budget to hire me on; no budget no hire, bottom line.

B DOES seem like the likeliest one to yield long-term results.  But I'm sure as hell not considering that a guarantee, either.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2587 on: March 27, 2013, 09:48:51 PM »

It seems like C shouldn't be discounted as easily as that then. It's close and seems like it may be much more interesting work and give you better options in the long term. Plus the lower pay may not matter if you can use it as a springboard to something better.

On the other side of the coin, those questions make B sound a little more ominous than I'd like now. They're telling you you won't deal with customers, but I'm wondering if that will actually hold up in practice. And doing work on some gimpy in-house template seems like a much less transferable skill. In fact it doesn't sound too much better than desktop support.

C sounds the closest to valuing you for individual talent or ability. The other two sound more like the typical "slot in a warm body" spec. If the salary differential between A and B is 10%, what's the salary differential between B and C? Because I'm really thinking the real choice here is between B and C and not A and B.
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François

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2588 on: March 27, 2013, 09:56:51 PM »

I'm probably one of the least qualified people in the universe to give advice on this subject... but... if I was trying to decide that one for myself, I would ask this: if I do pick A or C, once the time's up and I need to find another job, how much am I likely to regret not having given B a shot?
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Brentai

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2589 on: March 27, 2013, 10:25:57 PM »

It could either be the most dynamic of the three or the most repetitive.  It involves testing software across various platforms (Windows, Mac, Android), setting up a test bench and automated scripts, that kind of thing.

Since that's more or less what I've been doing for the last three years, I can tell you... it's both.

Test gives you more opportunity to learn new things than development does, oddly enough, but you have to put up with A LOT of day to day repetition as an exchange.  Where development has you learn 1 new thing and apply it ten different ways, test has you learn 2 new things and apply each five times the same way.  You end up knowing more than the developers, but you're 5 times as bored and nobody really believes that you know more than the developers.

(Slightly off-topic anecdote: We were watching some videos during Agile training today and they kept portraying the token tester as this punk who won't stop checking out and fiddling with his cellphone during meetings.  I was a little annoyed about it, but mostly because the guys I've had on my team have all had that problem.  And I don't blame them for it; when you do this job for any amount of time you learn to multitask while paying attention to boring shit, because our entire jobs are pretty much multitasking while paying attention to boring shit.  It's the guys outside the test sphere who don't realize that we're all actually paying perfect attention, but really can't be assed to focus our entire overextended attention spans on your irrelevant bullshit.)
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Thad

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2590 on: March 27, 2013, 10:31:28 PM »

On the other side of the coin, those questions make B sound a little more ominous than I'd like now. They're telling you you won't deal with customers, but I'm wondering if that will actually hold up in practice. And doing work on some gimpy in-house template seems like a much less transferable skill. In fact it doesn't sound too much better than desktop support.

I'm cynical enough that I'm less worried about whether it IS a transferable skill than whether it'll SOUND like one on a resume.  I'm confident enough in my Web design skills not to be worried about whether I'll learn anything I can use in a future interview.

It's also a company that's well-known for promoting from within -- I'm surprised it's hiring people through agencies at all instead of pulling people in from other departments.

C sounds the closest to valuing you for individual talent or ability.

Well, maybe, aside from the whole "We guarantee we're going to kick you out and slot someone else in eventually" thing.

The other two sound more like the typical "slot in a warm body" spec. If the salary differential between A and B is 10%, what's the salary differential between B and C? Because I'm really thinking the real choice here is between B and C and not A and B.

The salary differential between B and C is negligible.  Most weeks it would probably cover the amount I spend on comics.

I'm probably one of the least qualified people in the universe to give advice on this subject... but... if I was trying to decide that one for myself, I would ask this: if I do pick A or C, once the time's up and I need to find another job, how much am I likely to regret not having given B a shot?

It's a good question but the answer tells you more about me than any of the positions.  I'm not a guy who spends a lot of time on regrets.

My career trajectory would probably have been fundamentally different if I'd taken a job with B 7 years ago instead of going to work for a local ISP and plunging into the most challenging and worst-paying job I've ever had.  The extent of my regret for the Road Not Taken is about what you saw in this thread -- a shrug and a "Well, whaddaya gonna do?"

If I took A and they sent me packing in six months, that would bug me more than if I took C and they sent me packing in a year.  But in either case I'd get back to submitting resumes and do what I had to do to get back on the train.

Worst-case is valuable to consider in risk assessment.  But likely case is important too.  (I suppose in the case of C they're pretty close to the same thing.  I mean, actual worst-case would involve me getting fired or otherwise cut loose before my contract was up, but that's true of every job ever and not a very helpful metric.  And it's also only ever happened once, at the Worst Job Ever.  Which was also located in north Phoenix.  You know, I'm beginning to think it's not just the commute that gives me an aversion to that area.)

Now, if I took B and they cut me loose in two months, THAT would be pretty frustrating.  But again, I'd heave an exasperated sigh and get back to the job search.  I'm used to it at this point.

(There is, of course, also the question of what state unemployment insurance will be in two months from now.  But it's not exactly something I can predict or plan for so I'm not going to waste too much worry on it.)

Since that's more or less what I've been doing for the last three years, I can tell you... it's both.

Test gives you more opportunity to learn new things than development does, oddly enough, but you have to put up with A LOT of day to day repetition as an exchange.  Where development has you learn 1 new thing and apply it ten different ways, test has you learn 2 new things and apply each five times the same way.  You end up knowing more than the developers, but you're 5 times as bored and nobody really believes that you know more than the developers.

Valuable insight; thanks.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2591 on: March 27, 2013, 10:40:50 PM »

I wonder if it's worth trying to ask C to up their offer based on A's figure? Would that change the weights on your decision if it did? I mean, with B, it carries a bit more risk because you want them to like you long term if you're hoping for a permanent hire. If C is a fixed contract with a guaranteed dismissal at the end, it's much less awkward to try and wangle a higher rate.
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Thad

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2592 on: March 28, 2013, 07:44:24 AM »

I already had them up it to match B.  I don't think they'll raise it again but I don't suppose it would hurt to ask.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2593 on: March 28, 2013, 08:11:52 AM »

I already had them up it to match B.  I don't think they'll raise it again but I don't suppose it would hurt to ask.

Not if you're genuinely going to pick a different choice without that incentive and could more seriously consider C with it, no. That's fully above-board, I think.

EDIT: There's the risk that they might see you as someone stringing them along, which could hurt any later offers from them at some future date. But that's really a nine-steps-too-far-ahead kind of thing.
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Thad

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2594 on: March 28, 2013, 08:35:36 AM »

Just got off the phone with C.  Sounds like a good fit and the place I would most enjoy working.

But they don't think they'll be able to give me an answer by tomorrow.

Strictly speaking, I could accept A and continue to interview for C.  It's not the best idea and if I DID jump ship from A to C after I'd already started I'd probably be burning bridges with the agency that has gotten me 100% of my dayjobs for the past 5 years.  Probably not a good call.

I can't take B and continue to interview for C because they're through the same agency.

I've got until tomorrow to make up my mind.  Barring any sudden feedback from C I think I'm going to have to go B.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2595 on: March 28, 2013, 08:40:07 AM »

Maybe talk to the agency for B & C to see if they can give you another day to make a decision? Or does B want you to start Monday? Your first sentence makes it seem like C is possibly a better option, but that's just me.

Agree that burning bridges is a bad idea here.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2596 on: March 28, 2013, 08:42:06 AM »

I mean, when you boil it down, there is no longer any salary or commute difference between B and C, so is the decision now essentially not one of job security versus job satisfaction?
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Thad

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2597 on: March 28, 2013, 08:51:02 AM »

Maybe talk to the agency for B & C to see if they can give you another day to make a decision? Or does B want you to start Monday?

Yeah, that.  I already asked; they told me B is bringing in the whole team at once and wants to train everybody together starting Monday, so there's no pushing it back.

I mean, when you boil it down, there is no longer any salary or commute difference between B and C, so is the decision now essentially not one of job security versus job satisfaction?

Yes, with both those variables educated guesses at best.
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Mongrel

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2598 on: March 28, 2013, 08:59:15 AM »

Well, in spite of any financial difficulties, I've reached a point where I will always take satisfaction over security, but that's my own bias and may not work for you.

My best advice now is to forget it for the rest of the day (if possible), sleep on it, and see how you feel in the morning.
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Thad

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Re: Your Job: The Movie
« Reply #2599 on: March 28, 2013, 11:10:08 AM »

Rep who got me A called for an update; I told him I was taking B.  He seemed sanguine about it and said he'd talk to the client.

My primary rep called me back a bit later.  Did one of those guilt-trippy "I'm just trying to understand" and "you know this puts us in a tough spot and we might lose the contract" speeches.  When I was apologetic but said I was sticking with B he started in with the FUD about the turnover there, and I felt that one; I AM concerned about the corporate environment.  I'm hoping that as a Web developer I'll have a better time than the phone bank guys, and I haven't changed my mind, but he HAS got my stomach in knots, second-guessing and doubting the call I've made.  Hate that shit.  But I'll get over it.  I think worst-case is still better than the shit I put up with in June '11.
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