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Author Topic: Balls  (Read 4454 times)

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Bongo Bill

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Balls
« on: April 05, 2009, 12:14:07 AM »

The Sandman nerf fixed everything that was wrong with it, while maintaining it's intended purpose.

Untrue. The intended purpose was what was wrong with it in the first place. Stuns do not belong in this game. I don't care if I'm fucking indestructible while stunned. If it happens at all, it's too often.
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JDigital

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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 02:43:34 AM »

Stuns are annoying. D&D fourth edition almost never completely immobilizes a person, and even when it dazes a character he gets a 50% chance to shrug it off each round. In 3.0 you could be hit with Hold Person and frozen for most of the combat.
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Bal

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Balls
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 03:17:59 AM »

The Sandman nerf fixed everything that was wrong with it, while maintaining it's intended purpose.

Untrue. The intended purpose was what was wrong with it in the first place. Stuns do not belong in this game. I don't care if I'm fucking indestructible while stunned. If it happens at all, it's too often.

I guess you should learn to dodge the ball, or cry more, because it's not going anywhere. Now that I'm used to the ball being in the game, I almost never get hit, and when I do it is normally either my fault, or the result of a successful ambush by a Sandman wielding Scout. This is acceptable, skill based gameplay as far as I am concerned. If you get stunned out in the open, and then you get headshot by a sniper, this is not cheap, this is the result of emergent teamwork, where the strength of one class adds to the strength of another.

I agree that what would be called "crowd control" in an MMO setting needs to be carefully watched, and that more should not be added, but what is there is not out of line.

You can get used to it, or don't, but keep in mind that the balance on the effect is some of the best I've ever seen.
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Bongo Bill

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Balls
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2009, 03:24:02 AM »

Being hit by a Sandman ball sends you into the paradoxical state of not being dead, but also not being able to play. If the effect were any kind of fun, I might be more appreciative of the irony that this came from the company that made the first-person shooter where you never totally lost control even in cutscenes.
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Bal

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Balls
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2009, 03:37:53 AM »

Dying is not fun either, nor is losing. The price for getting killed in combat is death, and a wait, the price for your team being worse than the other team is failure. Similarly, the price for getting hit with the Sandman ball is brief incapacity. If you don't want to die, or lose, you have to apply your skill and win, but that is not always enough. Again, the same is true for the ball. You can try to avoid it, or kill the scout, but sometimes he's going to get you. When this happens to me my immediate reaction is to watch closely what happens to me, and prepare for the stun to wear off, which is a much more active state than when I die. How is this worse than a crit rocket or, removing random chance, the headshot or backstab of the unseen sniper or spy? You are less able to react to them, when successful, than you are the sandman.

I get that you hate the stun, but I don't buy that it is inherently bad.
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Crouton

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Balls
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2009, 04:03:53 AM »

Sandman never bothered me, but I do think they took it a bit too far with stunning ubers.
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Bongo Bill

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Balls
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2009, 04:14:15 AM »

Death is one consequence that can be caused by a vast number of effects in the game. A death you could not reasonably have foreseen is never a positive thing, but it's tempered considerably by the fact that you can do the same thing right back at them. A long respawn sets you back farther, but it lends a certain rhythm to the game. For all that the die-respawn cycle takes control out of your hands, it is also normal. Killing and dying and coming back is a part of the context in which the entire genre is played, it's the one mechanic most central to the design of the game, and while respawning might not be objectively preferable to being stunned, there's a lot to be said for familiarity and reciprocity.

Stuns challenge that long-standing and well-polished paradigm of play, and they disrupt the continuity of the gameplay. Having control taken away by a means entirely outside the balanced mechanic that dominates everything else will never feel right until it has been brought closer to the core of the mechanics. It's just tacked-on. Only one class can cause this effect, there's no counter to it that isn't also a counter to literally everything else, it's one of two things (the other being knockback) in the game that can't be prevented under any circumstances (reflecting a baseball with a compression blast is a fucking joke, on par with a taunt kill), and its drawbacks make no sense in the context of the established mechanics or even of its own core mechanic and are of no consolation to the target.

And on top of that, you're forced to endure six seconds of watching the enemy get free hits on you. And that enemy is the one designed to be the most annoying, and the only class that doesn't outgun it in normal circumstances is the one least likely to be affected by the weapon.

What does it add to the game, besides annoyance that doesn't really seem to fit? Is the option to rarely and temporarily remove one target from the fight really worth all the rest of that?

Also: dodging them? They go faster than the critrockets you seem to hate so much, never have other attacks of their kind as a warning, and are fired by the class that's hardest to read. Killing the scout first? It's one of two weapons that gets more effective at longer range, so they can easily stun you at a range that you're ineffective against them. Cry some more? That's what I'm doing.
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Mongrel

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Balls
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2009, 04:39:48 AM »

I still think they should have halved the stun time (or reduced it by 50%) and left the damage on full.

It just annoys me that a player is somehow shielded from damage because he's standing in the middle of the battlefield cluelessly, after being beaned with a baseball. It's incredibly counter-intuitive and poor design (the nerf I mean, not the Sandman itself).

I also think that a shorter stun time would annoy other players and have reinforced the sandman's purpose a formation disruptor, rather than an isolator.

Also, has anyone else considered that one of the reasons the Sandman was added was to use it as a testbed to gauge player reactions to stun weapons? It's a 2nd stage unlockable for a class that will never be in the top-three classes played, with only a single shot and a high skill prerequisite. Its impact is about as limited as it can get, but based on the mixed responses I suspect we won't see further stun weapons.

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Bal

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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2009, 05:23:00 AM »

Death is one consequence that can be caused by a vast number of effects in the game. A death you could not reasonably have foreseen is never a positive thing, but it's tempered considerably by the fact that you can do the same thing right back at them. A long respawn sets you back farther, but it lends a certain rhythm to the game. For all that the die-respawn cycle takes control out of your hands, it is also normal. Killing and dying and coming back is a part of the context in which the entire genre is played, it's the one mechanic most central to the design of the game, and while respawning might not be objectively preferable to being stunned, there's a lot to be said for familiarity and reciprocity.

So stun feels more out of place to you because you are not used to being stunned. From an objective standpoint the stun and the death are equally normal, and your aversion is preferential. Which is what I thought to begin with. Again though, I consider being stunned a much more active experience than being killed. If you get stunned, and just throw your hands up, willing the scout to just get it over with, well that's your problem, and you'd be more successful if you instead used that time to get ready for the stun wearing off.

Quote
Stuns challenge that long-standing and well-polished paradigm of play, and they disrupt the continuity of the gameplay. Having control taken away by a means entirely outside the balanced mechanic that dominates everything else will never feel right until it has been brought closer to the core of the mechanics. It's just tacked-on. Only one class can cause this effect, there's no counter to it that isn't also a counter to literally everything else, it's one of two things (the other being knockback) in the game that can't be prevented under any circumstances (reflecting a baseball with a compression blast is a fucking joke, on par with a taunt kill), and its drawbacks make no sense in the context of the established mechanics or even of its own core mechanic and are of no consolation to the target.

Only one class can instantly kill any other simply by means of a melee attack from behind. Until this mechanic is brought more in line with everything else it will never feel right. This cannot be countered by anything that doesn't counter literally everything else in the game.

Your other point here seems to be that it is different from what can already be done, and is therefore bad. I believe this to be incorrect. The whole point of the class patches is to give each class an alternative method of play and set of tactics, and to further separate them from every other class.

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And on top of that, you're forced to endure six seconds of watching the enemy get free hits on you. And that enemy is the one designed to be the most annoying, and the only class that doesn't outgun it in normal circumstances is the one least likely to be affected by the weapon.

First of all, you pulled that number out of your ass. Six seconds is a max range stun, and maybe not even that, and in that case the scout can barely reach you before it wears off. Second, the scout "outguns" damn near every class in the game. A short range to point blank scattergun shot does around 125 damage, non-crit. The FAN does around 100 damage per shot at the same range (this is tempered somewhat by the knockback on the first shot). That's why the damage reduction while stunned was necessary. Finally, no class is designed to be "most annoying". You find the scout to be the most annoying class, while I personally dislike the demoman much more, and others really hate getting sniped.

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What does it add to the game, besides annoyance that doesn't really seem to fit? Is the option to rarely and temporarily remove one target from the fight really worth all the rest of that?

It adds the ability for a scout to play a meaningful role on the red team in a defense based map, setting up attackers to be finished off by team mates, and disrupting pushes, or in the defense of or offense of a position on a symmetrical map by doing the same thing.

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Also: dodging them?

Yes, dodging them. You don't dodge the projectile when it's already in the air, you begin to dodge before it ever leaves the opponent. The ball has flight time, and the scout only gets one shot. Most scouts will take the first shot they think will hit, and most of them miss me. It's not that easy to hit someone with it when they're shooting back and actively evading.

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They go faster than the critrockets you seem to hate so much, never have other attacks of their kind as a warning, and are fired by the class that's hardest to read. Killing the scout first? It's one of two weapons that gets more effective at longer range, so they can easily stun you at a range that you're ineffective against them. Cry some more? That's what I'm doing.

I don't hate crit rockets, and I'm not sure where you got that from my post. If you don't have warning, that's called an ambush, which is what scouts do. Yes, scouts are hard to read, depending on the scout, but all that dodging around screws up their aim too, and the scout only has 125 hitpoints, even if you can't kill them you can often run them off to find a health pack, and if the ball misses you've got a lot of time to do so.

I don't use the Sandman except when the situation demands it anymore, because instead of stunning someone and doing half damage, I'd rather just kill them with my high speed ambushes, and powerful gun, and I see more and more of what I would call good scouts doing the same thing
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Crouton

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Balls
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2009, 05:47:32 AM »

I've found the flare gun to be a sufficient answer to all my sandman problems.

What I'd like to see at the very least, is a change to stop scouts from getting new balls from resupply. Mostly because there's always at least one scout on my team ducking in and out of spawn instead of being useful.
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Norondor

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Balls
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2009, 06:19:07 AM »

What I'd like to see at the very least, is a change to stop scouts from getting new balls from resupply. Mostly because there's always at least one scout on my team ducking in and out of spawn instead of being useful.

guilty as charged your honor
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Bal

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Balls
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2009, 06:19:42 AM »

Yeah, Sandman scouts are often just as bad as lolduel snipers.
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Niku

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Balls
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2009, 07:01:57 AM »

spawn ducking can be useful while you're still pushing from your spawn

once it takes longer to get back to resupply than it would be for you to hunt down some straggler for another few seconds while it recharges, you're doing it wrong.
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Norondor

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Balls
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2009, 07:17:46 AM »

yeah, i do it on the first point of cp_egypt and such. Sometimes people get so mad they leave the game! :glee:
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Rico

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Balls
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2009, 08:51:18 AM »

Sandman never bothered me, but I do think they took it a bit too far with stunning ubers.

That was quite a lot of the point in adding it.

But yeah, now that there's not 6 scouts per team, even though I'm usually playing Heavy I'm rarely stunned by a Sandman unless it's from close enough range that it hardly matters.  The Scout has a very noticable animation while doing it and even if you're not looking at him the firing time is long enough you usually accidentally dodge most of them unless you're being a huge derp and moving without strafing.
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Saturn

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Balls
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2009, 09:03:59 AM »

honestly, i think the nerf was too much.

I would have only made the stunned guy take half damage from the jerk that stunned him, this fixes the LOL SANDMAN MAKES SCOUT UNSTOPPABLE 1V1 problem, but doesn't annoy the team the scout is on.
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Bongo Bill

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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2009, 12:15:55 PM »

Killing is normal. Any class can kill. With critical hits and such, any class can even kill without instantly from time to time, or as near enough to instantly as to make no practical difference to mere humans. Since you can only see in front of you, it's even possible for any class to kill without warning. It's a pervasive and normal part of the gameplay in a way that stuns are not.

When I said annoying, I meant in terms of characterization.

You told me to dodge the balls. I gave you many reasons why that'd be too much to ask for a lot of players. Not everybody is a pro gamer.

You'll excuse me for thinking you hate critrockets when you listed them as an example of something that's more bullshit than a stun.
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James Edward Smith

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Balls
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2009, 01:08:37 PM »

Seriously, I never get hit by baseballs unless I don't see them coming and even then I dodge them accidentally most of the time. It's hard to hit people with them unless you are hitting them into a crowd, choke point or at a heavy.

It's not about being a pro-gamer, it's about having reactions faster than a 3-toed-sloth's and not walking around like a derp and standing still a lot. I mean, anyone who can't dodge sandman balls is just gonna be dog-meat in TF2 anyway, there's a ton of things harder to dodge that are gonna kill the shit out of you a hell of a lot faster so whining about something that is easier to dodge than most things and doesn't even directly kill you seems a little derpy.

It's only real strength is uber wasting so really, any ball hit that strikes an un-ubered target is kind of a waste most of the time.
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Brentai

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Balls
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2009, 01:10:13 PM »

Most of the time if a ball is coming at you, you are a Heavy.
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James Edward Smith

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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2009, 01:13:58 PM »

Maybe they should just get rid of the damage reduction and replace it with people coming out of a stun getting a free crit proc due to rage. That way heavies wouldn't be hurt by it as much as they are the most likely to come out of a stun alive.
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