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Author Topic: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions  (Read 8286 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2008, 03:44:58 PM »

Let us all contribute to the failure of China.  Trollers unite!

<-----

I MUST WORK HARDER

...

Except the torch isn't coming to Canuckistan

 :sadpanda: :MENDOZAAAAA:
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Aintaer

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2008, 04:02:51 PM »

Except the torch isn't coming to Canuckistan United States of Kannuckopia
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Mongrel

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2008, 04:49:52 PM »

Except the torch isn't coming to Canuckistan United States of Cornucopia

 :richiam:
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Thad

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2008, 11:18:59 PM »

Michael A Kroll recounts his experience protesting the 1980 Olympics.  Summary: he protested, he was arrested, he sued and won.

Quote
The result may be instructive both for those contemplating how they might express their opposition to the upcoming Olympic Games in China, and for the government that hopes to impose "time, place and manner" restrictions on such demonstrations. In a word, what my case determined is that where there is "no obstruction of pedestrian or vehicular traffic" by a single demonstrator (who does) "not threaten or provoke violence," there is no right to impose the kinds of restrictions allowed on larger, organized gatherings.

San Francisco officials might also want to consider this from the court’s decision: "Freedom of expression would not truly exist if the right could be exercised only in an area that a benevolent government has provided as a safe haven for crackpots." (That would be me…) "(W)e do not confine the permissible exercise of First Amendment rights to a telephone booth or the four corners of a pamphlet…"
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Zaratustra

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2008, 11:21:10 PM »

What I'm really hoping is that one of the fellas carrying the torch will decide they want to make a statement.

SCD

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2008, 11:38:40 PM »

Correction, the flame was not extinguished

Looks like the protesters might have a target here..
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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2008, 03:08:39 AM »

So I have to wonder just how big these protests are going to get.

Are we going to have a full scale mob at the olympics charging onto the field of every event they possibly can?
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SCD

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2008, 05:47:54 AM »

Considering that China is a Police State, I would have to say no.
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Arc

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2008, 02:21:56 PM »

Often overlooked, China has sent their own security detail to accompany the flame.

Meanwhile, San Francisco begins to brew.

By my count, we're looking at five relays in The West, and eighteen in the The East.
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Aintaer

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2008, 03:25:40 PM »

So I have to wonder just how big these protests are going to get.

Are we going to have a full scale mob at the olympics charging onto the field of every event they possibly can?

During the Nixon visit to China, every house with a street facing window was occupied by Red Guards where Nixon was to pass through.

I would say not.  But then again, China is no longer the police state it was under Mao.

Postscript: protestors totally not helping.
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Mongrel

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2008, 03:55:56 PM »

China has demonstrated very clearly in the past that if the west keeps quiet and plays nice they will simply keep on the same path they've chosen. Do not mistake increased commercialization for increased openness.

No nation knows better than Canada that if you play nice with China on paper, while quietly trying to hint that maybe, just maybe, they might want to look at that 'human rights' thing, you will not only fail, but be shut out in the diplomatic cold. The smallest mention of a mark on their record is enough for them to slam the portcullis in your face.

Also, the comparisons in that article are espcially lawlz. As much as I love to abuse the US, last time I checked, state-sanctioned negro and mexican massacre parties only happen once in a while, when somebody gets uppity or looks at a white woman or something.
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Aintaer

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2008, 04:35:21 PM »

Yes because that has totally not happened in the past in US history.

Another thing is the indiscriminate flaming of China not realizing that the people of China are as much devoted to the Chinese Olympics as the government.  Sure you embarrass the government of China, but you also embarrass the people, who have long memories of Western invasion back a hundred years ago.  (They have a National Humiliation Monument in the garden that the British mistakenly shelled.)

So would you risk Chinese people being even more xenophic than Mao in the 1960s just so you can "send the message"?
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Thad

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2008, 05:05:03 PM »

Hi Aintaer,

Are you planning on saying anything constructive or useful on the appropriate way to deal with the Chinese government, or is this going to be another conversation where you just repeatedly tell us that China should never be criticized for anything, ever, and everything will just eventually sort itself out?

Because ignoring the Tibet issue has worked out SO WELL for the past 6 decades.
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SCD

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2008, 07:15:54 PM »

Yes because that has totally not happened in the past in US history.

Another thing is the indiscriminate flaming of China not realizing that the people of China are as much devoted to the Chinese Olympics as the government.  Sure you embarrass the government of China, but you also embarrass the people, who have long memories of Western invasion back a hundred years ago.  (They have a National Humiliation Monument in the garden that the British mistakenly shelled.)

So would you risk Chinese people being even more xenophic than Mao in the 1960s just so you can "send the message"?

I like to point out the Olympics before that were boycotted or protested by large amounts of people

  • Nuremberg
  • Moscow
  • Mexico City

There is a theme here, and Bejing belongs on that list.  Cities such as Toronto who have failed the 2008 bid remember well Bejing's promises to 'improve in the environment', 'human rights', and taking a more active role in promoting "world peace".

To be frank, I have a friend who lives in Beijing as an English Teacher (xenophobia, you say?) where he can only see 50 feet due to air pollution.  Your solution for Tibet seems to be to flood the province with Han Chinese to the point where the ethnic people feel threatened enough to revolt.  I am also a friend of a recent UN military observer who returned from Darfur and the situation, while not Rwanda in the timescale to commit such nameless horror, continues its slow bleed of despair, bloodshed and instability.  No media outlet can convince me otherwise of the stories of that location and its destabilizing implications to surrounding nations such as the CAR, or Chad.  The last bit is important as the only modernized nation who has political sway in that region is none other than your own. 

Which also happens to be the largest supplier of weapons and military-pattern vehicles.

China has failed on its promises that won its bid and every nation in the world that isn't a police state on the torch route has made it clear their displeasure.

Once the opening ceremonies are over, this will all end as we focus on the athletes.  But for now, the individuals have sent their message and I can do nothing but nod my head and agree.

In addition, the yanks once invaded my nation just as long ago resulting in the destruction of several civilian targets on my side including what was an entire city. 
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SCD

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2008, 07:24:47 PM »

On another subject, San Francisco gets a new category for its weasely ways.

Someone oughta splatter your mayor with a pie next chance they get.
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Mongrel

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2008, 07:32:11 PM »

Yes because that has totally not happened in the past in US history.

Another thing is the indiscriminate flaming of China not realizing that the people of China are as much devoted to the Chinese Olympics as the government.  Sure you embarrass the government of China, but you also embarrass the people, who have long memories of Western invasion back a hundred years ago.  (They have a National Humiliation Monument in the garden that the British mistakenly shelled.)

So would you risk Chinese people being even more xenophic than Mao in the 1960s just so you can "send the message"?

Oh, Tu Quoque, how I love you so.
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Aintaer

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2008, 10:09:12 PM »

Constructively deal with China: remember when US crashed their airplanes and mans into China and it seemed like a third world war was coming?  That was resolved diplomatically, showing that contrary to Iron_Mongrel's opinions, the Chinese government can be reasoned and negotiated with.

Regarding all your propaganda about how horribly Chinese are oppressing the Tibetan people: this man says it much better and much eloquently than somebody so obviously biased toward China.

And Iron_Mongrel, the first part is the tu quoque part, which addresses your lawls at the comparison.  Replying lawls with lawls, so to speak.  The latter portion is the real point.

Regarding SCD's point on China's influences in Darfur.  China's primary interests are her own, not everybody else's, to contrast US foreign policy.  The government does trade there because they have oil there, oil to feed the energy requirements which are increasingly growing and conflicting with US energy requirements.  Unless the US is willing to share its oil, China's not likely to stop these activities.  Calling for China to improve humans rights is one thing, but to support human rights globally is beyond her capabilities at the moment.

So to respond to Thad, here is my proposal for dealing with the Chinese government:  Give them what they need, demand what you want in return.  US has a relationship with China like no other.  This can be used to convince Beijing to follow on certain reforms.  Certain things need to be realized as not possible under current conditions.  One of these is for the Chinese government to let go of any land (this includes Taiwan).  In order to get China to improve her human rights issues, demand quantifiable improvements by some international watchdog group, in return, fully reject ROC as a governing body and stop arms trade with Taiwan.  EU could offer fissile energy technology in return for reduction in emissions and pollutions.  As long as you are 1) giving them something they need, and 2) not demanding they give up land, it is a valid proposal.

However, I do not think there is anything that individuals can accomplish, even as a mass, without political support.  All the more reason for you guys to not just vote for guys who promise to be "tough on China" but for guys who actually know what's going on.

Meanwhile, the Chinese government will only change if party insiders start changing or if there is an overthrow of the government.  The latter does not seem a likely option given the amount that people will put up with before they feel the need to revolt en masse.  Party insiders are changing as we speak as the Old Generation who have participated in the Chinese Revolution and the Long March retire/die and the New Generation come to replace them.  This unfortunately, calls for people like Thad to have at least one generation's worth of patience.
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Arc

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2008, 01:02:50 AM »

NSFW: WikiLeaks still leading with documentation of 120+ photos and video of unrest in Tibet. Again, NSFW.
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Thad

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2008, 10:49:08 AM »

Regarding all your propaganda about how horribly Chinese are oppressing the Tibetan people: this man says it much better and much eloquently than somebody so obviously biased toward China.

:strawman:

"It's better now than it was in the 1950's" is not a defense.  And that's not the only post in the thread; there are some perfectly good responses taking the opposing viewpoint.

Regarding SCD's point on China's influences in Darfur.  China's primary interests are her own, not everybody else's, to contrast US foreign policy.

Wow, you just shifted from "it's okay for China to illegally occupy other nations" to "China can't afford to be concerned with the rest of the world" so fast I got whiplash.

The government does trade there because they have oil there, oil to feed the energy requirements which are increasingly growing and conflicting with US energy requirements.  Unless the US is willing to share its oil, China's not likely to stop these activities.  Calling for China to improve humans rights is one thing, but to support human rights globally is beyond her capabilities at the moment.

Lipstick on a pig.  China doesn't care who gets raped as long as it gets its oil.

And please don't respond with "neither does the US".  Of course the US doesn't.  You don't see ME cheerleading about how it's not my government's fault and there's just no other option.

So to respond to Thad, here is my proposal for dealing with the Chinese government:  Give them what they need, demand what you want in return.  US has a relationship with China like no other.  This can be used to convince Beijing to follow on certain reforms.  Certain things need to be realized as not possible under current conditions.  One of these is for the Chinese government to let go of any land (this includes Taiwan).  In order to get China to improve her human rights issues, demand quantifiable improvements by some international watchdog group, in return, fully reject ROC as a governing body and stop arms trade with Taiwan.  EU could offer fissile energy technology in return for reduction in emissions and pollutions.  As long as you are 1) giving them something they need, and 2) not demanding they give up land, it is a valid proposal.

That's a reasonable response, and the reason I'm replying rather than ignoring you.  However, it's more than a little on the vague side.

The Chinese government's as reluctant to accept such basic Enlightenment ideals as freedom of speech, press, religion, and assembly as it is to give up land.  It's trying to reap the technological advances of the twenty-first century without catching up to the political advances of the eighteenth.  I realize that these are not changes that will occur overnight and must be chipped away at, but our government seems to be showing very little interest in even modest progress.  (That could be because Bush's economic strategy consists of "owe a bunch of money to China so that the richest 1% of America doesn't have to pay taxes".)  China needs to be challenged.  More pressure needs to be brought to bear.

However, I do not think there is anything that individuals can accomplish, even as a mass, without political support.  All the more reason for you guys to not just vote for guys who promise to be "tough on China" but for guys who actually know what's going on.

I'm not even sure who you're referring to.  China isn't a major issue in any race I know of this year, except as part of the larger issue of the economy.

And if that's a dig at Obama, that dog don't hunt; I'm not voting Clinton or McCain.  (Not that it matters; as I've noted, I'm in McCain's home state, which he'll win by 20 points.)  Obama's foreign policy weakness can be offset by good choices for VP ('sup Biden) and cabinet.  My trust for McCain's foreign policy chops declines a little every time he confuses Sunnis and Shi'ites.  Clinton's probably the best candidate WRT relations with China, but her chances at the nomination are increasingly slim, and I have a bevy of reasons not to vote for her if she gets it.

Meanwhile, the Chinese government will only change if party insiders start changing or if there is an overthrow of the government.  The latter does not seem a likely option given the amount that people will put up with before they feel the need to revolt en masse.  Party insiders are changing as we speak as the Old Generation who have participated in the Chinese Revolution and the Long March retire/die and the New Generation come to replace them.  This unfortunately, calls for people like Thad to have at least one generation's worth of patience.

So that's basically a much wordier version of "just wait and it'll all sort itself out".

I think what history has shown is that the best way for something to just sort itself out over time is when it becomes clear that it's economically disastrous (communism, looking in your direction here).  That's not going to happen if THERE ARE NO NEGATIVE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.
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Aintaer

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Re: Olympic Torch Ceremony Disruptions
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2008, 11:33:40 AM »

Regarding all your propaganda about how horribly Chinese are oppressing the Tibetan people: this man says it much better and much eloquently than somebody so obviously biased toward China.
"It's better now than it was in the 1950's" is not a defense.  And that's not the only post in the thread; there are some perfectly good responses taking the opposing viewpoint.

I think the point was that it is better now than it would have been had there not been Chinese modernization.  Granted there are plenty bad elements to it, but the scientific literature seems to obliterate the argument that the Han Chinese are systematically destroying Tibetan culture through population replacement, enforced non-education, etc that Tibetan exiles like to claim.

Quote
Regarding SCD's point on China's influences in Darfur.  China's primary interests are her own, not everybody else's, to contrast US foreign policy.

Wow, you just shifted from "it's okay for China to illegally occupy other nations" to "China can't afford to be concerned with the rest of the world" so fast I got whiplash.

At what point did I say it's okay for China to illegally occupy other nations?  Tibet as viewed by UN is not a nation.  Neither is Taiwan.  The history is that Tibet was an area under direct rule by Qing Dynasty China and after the Western "interventions" which demolished Dynastic rule in China, was free from Chinese influence for half a century until Mao claimed it again.  Please also note the intention of Chiang Kai-shek was also to reclaim Tibet as a part of Nationalist China after the revolutionary war, so it's not only a Communist thing.  If you really want to push this argument, then I say that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land.

Also, it's not that China cannot afford to be concerned with the rest of the world.  Rather, it's that China cannot afford to be concerned for the rest of the world.  It is not my position that China should maintain this stance as it tries to become a global power.  China should make every effort to aid the Darfur situation, I'm just pointing out why it's not.

Quote
And please don't respond with "neither does the US".  Of course the US doesn't.  You don't see ME cheerleading about how it's not my government's fault and there's just no other option.

Hey, ideally, I wouldn't have this situation either.  There's no easy solution here.  But I do think that this kind of rhetoric doesn't help the situation even more with the Chinese government than the US government.  The Chinese one has a habit of crushing whoever cries the loudest, and I put people's lives above an ideal.  (What was the saying, rather a slave and alive than free and dead?)

Quote
The Chinese government's as reluctant to accept such basic Enlightenment ideals as freedom of speech, press, religion, and assembly as it is to give up land.  It's trying to reap the technological advances of the twenty-first century without catching up to the political advances of the eighteenth.  I realize that these are not changes that will occur overnight and must be chipped away at, but our government seems to be showing very little interest in even modest progress.  (That could be because Bush's economic strategy consists of "owe a bunch of money to China so that the richest 1% of America doesn't have to pay taxes".)  China needs to be challenged.  More pressure needs to be brought to bear.

Agreed that more nations need to put diplomatic pressure on China to change, but America, who is in the best position to do this, is too busy screwing itself over to really effect this kind of change.  Also, waaay too enamored with cheap Chinese goods.  (This is problematic when we go home to visit, what can we bring back as gifts that's Made in US anymore?)

China has, at least on paper, the basic freedoms.  However, China also has experience of cults assembling and overthrowing the government (See: Yellow Turban rebellion, Tai-Ping rebellion, Boxer rebellion, the millions of small rebellions during the Song Dynasty, the ENTIRETY of the Ming Dynasty, etc).  So in order to keep stability, China takes a rather heavy handed approach in enforcing these things.  Think of it as learning her personal lessons before learning European Enlightenment values.

Quote
I'm not even sure who you're referring to.  China isn't a major issue in any race I know of this year, except as part of the larger issue of the economy.

I was speaking more of your state representatives and senators there.  But I realize most those votes are along party lines.  Yay for democracy.

Quote
I think what history has shown is that the best way for something to just sort itself out over time is when it becomes clear that it's economically disastrous (communism, looking in your direction here).  That's not going to happen if THERE ARE NO NEGATIVE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.
I was thinking more like, these Old Generation people have to retire first because they have the most clout and are the hardest lined AGAINST deviation from Maoist ideals (every citizen a Soldier-Farmer-Scholar, self-sufficient agrarian economy, fuck the westerners and japanese).  Until then, it's damn near impossible for the party to change.
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