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[Kashan]

Let me tell you... you commit to ANY expensive/collectible hobby long enough, you eventually do it only when you want to - and on your terms - or you learn to hate it.

If I was being honest I'd say that most MTG players have ALWAYS been intolerable twits, nothing new there, but there used to be a spectrum of players at least.

I think people take different things from the hobby. Most people who play in tournaments enjoy tournaments specifically. They enjoy trying to find the best deck and read the meta-game. Most people who just want a casual game of magic don't even really understand the concept of a tournament. I mean why would you pay to play with cards you already payed to buy?

But as somebody who participated in weekly tournaments for several years until my local environment collapsed, and who still goes to 4 or 5 regional tournaments a year, I can say that tournaments have a very specific draw that casual play does not. And while I may not have to time to play in them at some point in the future, I don't believe I won't have the desire to.

There's still a variety of magic players, I think you just overlook them.

Also for many games, especially smaller games with a constant devoted fan-base, a long term community develops around the game. I love going to regional tournaments because I get to see the people I drink with a play with only a few times a year. Some of them I talk to online on a regular basis, but many of them I only see about week of my life every year.

[Mongrel]

Let me tell you... you commit to ANY expensive/collectible hobby long enough, you eventually do it only when you want to - and on your terms - or you learn to hate it.

If I was being honest I'd say that most MTG players have ALWAYS been intolerable twits, nothing new there, but there used to be a spectrum of players at least.

I think people take different things from the hobby. Most people who play in tournaments enjoy tournaments specifically. They enjoy trying to find the best deck and read the meta-game. Most people who just want a casual game of magic don't even really understand the concept of a tournament. I mean why would you pay to play with cards you already payed to buy?

But as somebody who participated in weekly tournaments for several years until my local environment collapsed, and who still goes to 4 or 5 regional tournaments a year, I can say that tournaments have a very specific draw that casual play does not. And while I may not have to time to play in them at some point in the future, I don't believe I won't have the desire to.

There's still a variety of magic players, I think you just overlook them.

Also for many games, especially smaller games with a constant devoted fan-base, a long term community develops around the game. I love going to regional tournaments because I get to see the people I drink with a play with only a few times a year. Some of them I talk to online on a regular basis, but many of them I only see about week of my life every year.

Ahhh, the old "casual serious vs. serious player" nonsense. A lot of people like to draw a line between the two groups for the purposes of stupid arguments. And man, I am fucking TIRED of hearing that kneejerk response come up in EVERY SINGLE conversation about hobby gaming.

You do realize that the flavour of hobby you're interested in (tournament/casual/craft/collector/etc.) has absolutely nothing to do with not being as gung-ho about that hobby after the better part of two decades, right? I could be collecting sticks of bubble gum for all it matters.

As for the maturity levels... I can categorically state that WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Every MTG player I've met in the past five years who was over thirty was either creepy, mentally... 'questionable' somehow, or a dealer.

I'm sure you're right that these good, sensible, well-balanced players exist somewhere in a lost shangri-la. I also understand that anecdotes do not equal data. But at the same time it's not worth a damn if someone tells you there's a Pacific Ocean somewhere out there when you're stuck in Death Valley.

[Brentai]

Something tells me that a sensible, balanced player does not spend an inordinate amount of time or money on any hobby, by definition.

...something tells me that.

[Mongrel]

That is correct. The ones I knew didn't.

Actually, that's a very good way of explaining the situation.

MTG seems to have entirely lost the casual demographic entirely. Not in the sense of 'casual' as mentioned above (where play style, flavourful play experience, and the 'cool' factor are more important to than straight victory, the mental game, or the strategic or tactical challenges of the game), but 'casual' as in 'part-time' or perhaps 'non-obesssive'. The most common pattern I see is kids become interested, play intensely for 1-3 years, grow disinterested, and move on to other pursuits.

The way I take the hobby used to be common enough, but it seems to have all but vanished. Doesn't mean my way is 'right' or 'wrong', but it does mean my interests rarely coincide with my co-hobbyists.

[MadMAxJr]

Casual players of Magic are a side effect of the target hardcore players.  Both bring money to WOTC, but take a wild guess which one they want to do business with on a regular basis?

[Mongrel]

Not if you look at what's been printed for the last several years. On the whole there has been a shit-ton majority of timmy n00b shit that is useless for competitive play. Competiton has also become less open-ended and fluid than it used to be in yonder years past.

More importantly, part of WotC's success derives from their understanding that both demographics are key: The casual crowd loves to spend large quantities of money chasing their white elephants and pumps tons of money into WotC themselves and the secondary market. They also play more over longer periods of time. Competitive players on the other hand will spend more money in drafting and supposedly 'legitimize' the game, making it acceptable to a broader base.

[Brentai]

Magic is not the hot shit it used to be.  Once you get over that idea, it seems to be doing just fine among the casual players.

[Kashan]

Ahhh, the old "casual serious vs. serious player" nonsense. A lot of people like to draw a line between the two groups for the purposes of stupid arguments. And man, I am fucking TIRED of hearing that kneejerk response come up in EVERY SINGLE conversation about hobby gaming.

You do realize that the flavour of hobby you're interested in (tournament/casual/craft/collector/etc.) has absolutely nothing to do with not being as gung-ho about that hobby after the better part of two decades, right? I could be collecting sticks of bubble gum for all it matters.

As for the maturity levels... I can categorically state that WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Every MTG player I've met in the past five years who was over thirty was either creepy, mentally... 'questionable' somehow, or a dealer.

I'm sure you're right that these good, sensible, well-balanced players exist somewhere in a lost shangri-la. I also understand that anecdotes do not equal data. But at the same time it's not worth a damn if someone tells you there's a Pacific Ocean somewhere out there when you're stuck in Death Valley.

Speaking of kneejerk.  

I'm not even sure where you're coming from here. Best I can come up with is somebody annoyed you in a conversation about this once and now you feel you've finally gotten your chance to say your piece. I never once said or even implied that casual play was lesser than tournament play, I merely tried to point out that tournament play has a unique draw over long term periods, something you seemed to flat out deny in your initial post with the bit about doing things on your own time/terms or hating it.

As for magic players that don't suck. The majority certainly do. When I go to gencon I try to slide through the magic section of the ccg hall as quickly as possible because it's filled with asshole twenty somethings and ancient neckbeards trying to prove something by stomping people with the 10 grand type 1 deck.

But at the local game store there's a great group of regular magic players that I draft with a few times a year when I get the itch. They're pretty much what you described in your first post. Older player with a good sense of humor and a laid back attitude. Now maybe that's incredibly rare now or something, or maybe it's just that the assholes are louder and it's easy to miss the cool laid back folk amongst the noise.

[Mongrel]

Ahhh, the old "casual serious vs. serious player" nonsense. A lot of people like to draw a line between the two groups for the purposes of stupid arguments. And man, I am fucking TIRED of hearing that kneejerk response come up in EVERY SINGLE conversation about hobby gaming.

You do realize that the flavour of hobby you're interested in (tournament/casual/craft/collector/etc.) has absolutely nothing to do with not being as gung-ho about that hobby after the better part of two decades, right? I could be collecting sticks of bubble gum for all it matters.

As for the maturity levels... I can categorically state that WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Every MTG player I've met in the past five years who was over thirty was either creepy, mentally... 'questionable' somehow, or a dealer.

I'm sure you're right that these good, sensible, well-balanced players exist somewhere in a lost shangri-la. I also understand that anecdotes do not equal data. But at the same time it's not worth a damn if someone tells you there's a Pacific Ocean somewhere out there when you're stuck in Death Valley.

Speaking of kneejerk. 

I'm not even sure where you're coming from here. Best I can come up with is somebody annoyed you in a conversation about this once and now you feel you've finally gotten your chance to say your piece. I never once said or even implied that casual play was lesser than tournament play, I merely tried to point out that tournament play has a unique draw over long term periods, something you seemed to flat out deny in your initial post with the bit about doing things on your own time/terms or hating it.

Nope. I was being literal. Every single time someone I hear discussions about the demographics of MTG players, someone trots out that chestnut eventually and I'm tired of it. I don't think it was in any way relevent to what I was talking about. But in any case, it's nothing to argue over, so I digress...

As for magic players that don't suck. The majority certainly do. When I go to gencon I try to slide through the magic section of the ccg hall as quickly as possible because it's filled with asshole twenty somethings and ancient neckbeards trying to prove something by stomping people with the 10 grand type 1 deck.

But at the local game store there's a great group of regular magic players that I draft with a few times a year when I get the itch. They're pretty much what you described in your first post. Older player with a good sense of humor and a laid back attitude.

Would I be right in guessing that few or none of these people are new players? You mentioned having get togethers 'once every year or so'.

Now maybe that's incredibly rare now or something, or maybe it's just that the assholes are louder and it's easy to miss the cool laid back folk amongst the noise.

Or maybe they were driven away.

[Kashan]

Would I be right in guessing that few or none of these people are new players? You mentioned having get togethers 'once every year or so'.

The gaming industry in general is having trouble attracting new players right now. Mostly they just shuffle around the ones they already have. With the advent of World of Warcraft and other online community games, it's a lot harder for CCGs to draw new players. So yeah they're older players, but I barely know any new player of any ccg that aren't playing Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh/Naruto.

Or maybe they were driven away.

Just cause they don't play at a game store doesn't mean they don't play. You play. Most of the people in #FF seem interested in whatever new cards come out when a new set is released. You wouldn't call those decent casual players?

[Mongrel]

I don't know. I haven't met most of the #FF crew in real life.

When I talk about people being driven away, I mean it. Both my wife and I have met people peripherally interested in gaming (i.e. people who don't game regularly, but have no predjudices against it), who have told us in no uncertain terms that the people they met at MTG events turned them off the game completely. I'm sure you can extend this to other games if you want, but this is the only one really relevant to me.

Maybe longtime players can look beyond the neckbeards and assholes and the literal and figurative small children, but it's terribly alienating for a new player to have that as their first impression of any real event.

[Kazz]

The gaming industry in general is having trouble attracting new players right now.

Prohibitive costs, archaic rulesets, balancing toward making the new stuff more powerful than the old stuff, the fact that you require in-person friends to play, and the fact that most of the meatspace gamers you'll find are complete jackasses.

I wouldn't touch a hobby game with a ten foot pole, and I think they're really fucking cool in concept.

[Doom]

I only mildly consider the idea for the painting/displaying aspect of it. Play with other people? Buh?

[Kazz]

My absolute favorite idea for a strategy game involves designing your own units.  It's sort of a hobby game idea, but it can go online and not cost $500 to put something fun together.

I always thought that the CCG concept of "if you spend more money, you're better!" was as awful as the MMO concept of "if you spend more time, you're better!"  One of the things that PlanetSide (remember that shit?) did right was making the newbies just as dangerous as the veterans; it was just that the veterans had access to more stuff and were more versatile.

[MadMAxJr]

The gaming industry in general is having trouble attracting new players right now.

Prohibitive costs, archaic rulesets, balancing toward making the new stuff more powerful than the old stuff, the fact that you require in-person friends to play, and the fact that most of the meatspace gamers you'll find are complete jackasses.

I wouldn't touch a hobby game with a ten foot pole, and I think they're really fucking cool in concept.

Sorry Kazz, but I have to pick this apart.

Cost prohibitive?  Yes, I'll grant you that one.  Marking and the skyrocketing cost of tin / the insane cost of starting up plastics manufacturing contribute to silly costs.  Varying degrees of evil on the part of the game company fill in the rest.  There's also a tiny little wedge reserved for evil retailers who like to add $10 to certain items for no reason at all.

Archaic rulesets?  If I'm reading this right, it just means the rules are very old?  I don't understand if you're trying to imply they're not fun as a result.  40k Has been around quite some time, and while the rules are little obtuse in spots, they aren't bad and can be fun.  Warmachine is newer, learned a little from some of the failures of 40k/Warhammer Fantasy, but it follows a bunch of the same dice principles.  Can I hit the target?  How badly did I wound the target?  Please clarify if I am missing your point when you say 'archaic'.

New stuff more powerful than the old is a marketing and motivator gimmick.  They have to breathe new life into the game if they want to keep up their monthly sales figures.  In a given setting you can only go through so many ideas before it gets a little absurd at how many unit types are available.  This is kinda why M:TG started jumping worlds every set.

Now, the requiring in-person friends bit.  Um.  That's kind of WHY I play these things.  Having to sit down with someone to play a game encourages better social habits.*  They are not assholes as a majority, despite the stories I've cited in this thread.  There are however, people who confuse the objectives of playing to win and playing to have fun.  The guy who solely plays to win doesn't care who you are and just wants to make you another notch in his belt as he grinds his way to whatever prize the store offers tonight, so he can lord it over everybody.  The guy who is entirely playing to have fun can have a tendency to complain if your army/deck has some structure to it so that it has good odds of winning, as compared to their setup that revolves around a 'fluff' or flavor theme that has no real strategy on it's own.  The fun people are the folks who look for a fine middle ground.  Play to have a good time, and win if you can.  The real win is everybody having a chuckle at the end and having a fun memory of what took place.  These people actually do exist, but with most any kind of social community, the only ones you tend to hear about are the ones that go out of their way to make themselves noticed.  I refuse to accept the statement that the majority are

The nice folk are busy playing in the corner, hoping nobody notices them and doesn't try to associate them with the jerk.

EDIT: Jesus christ you guys are typing at the speed of light.

*Not in any way research backed, just personal experience.

[Kazz]

I love playing games in person.  I consider it a drawback because I'll never round up a group of hobby-game players in my area, and even if I did manage to, I'm S.O.L. if I can't stand to be around them.

The internet is great because it allows us to play games with people even if they don't live in West Bumfuck.

You're lucky, because you seem to live in Nerd Store Central.  I don't.

[MadMAxJr]

All I can say to that is 'Stop living in the Mountains' unfortunately.  The only major gaming hub in the Mid-West is really St.Louis.  Other than that, it's various east/west coast places.

There are lots of good stores in between, it's just you'll find one, maybe two, not a dozen or more.

[Büge]

Huh. I had no idea GW lowered their canadian retail prices.

Course, if I lived in a place that stocked any decent minis, I'd be excited.

[MadMAxJr]

I'll have to look into this..  I've never heard of GW prices going down!

[Büge]

Here's an excerpt from the newsletter of my LGS:

Gamesworkshop has finally lowered the Canadian retail price for their products.Even
though the stock in
our store was purchased before this change we are putting all in store stock on sale 
immediately.In the future
we are going to reduce the price even more to give even better savings than they suggest.
For those of you who
have seen the movie Used Cars,pretend this is the scene
with the Kurt Russell, a shotgun,used cars and high price
stickers. If you have not seen the film just use your imagination.The price of a Cadian
Battleforce was $130,
the new price is $105.KAPOWW we will sell Battleforces for $89. Sorry, some dark force of
marketing or an old TV
Batman episode must have come over me to make the
Kapoww reference.A few prices have gone up ,the Baneblade for example has gone from $95
to $110, we will sell them
for $89.Starting Thursday and running through until the day
before Thanksgiving there will be 20% off the current price
of GW items. I will check each item to make sure that you get the lowest possible
price.Example, squads that retail for $45 have dropped to $40, sale price is $36. If you
order a
squad that is out of stock and the new price is $40, I will
order it in at a sale price of $32.If you have any questions
drop by the store this weekend and I will try to answer them.
One item of note,the new Space Marine Drop Pod. This item was supposed to be $45.I will
have to confirm it but I think
the new price is $35.That means the sale price will be $28.Just wondering,can Orks
capture a Pod and paint it red? Hmmm.

Anybody want me to snag some stuff while it's on sale?