Ok this is just silly. It is ludicrously simply to imagine a world without starvation, poverty, etc. Physical pain is stupid given it's just a glorified damage indicator. Fix that. Or maybe you could have perfect freewill and can do anything without boredom or whatever holding you back by just turning it off. This isn't hard.
Or we could take Cannon's black/white fallacy attitude toward a utopia an omnibenevolent/omnipotent deity could provide; where we are eternally happy cattle or 1/6th of the world is starving.
I can't argue every individual's notion of an omnibenevolent deity's utopia. I could probably see a problem with every one, however. For instance, I need a "glorified damage indicator" to avoid infection and horrible injury. Perhaps it's not hard because such universal hypotheticals are ultimately shallow?
My mind is just so enmeshed in this world where, yes, one-sixth of us are wasting away to bones and leather, that any proposed utopia seems to remove free will, not perfect it. If this has somehow lead to me presenting an either/or fallacy, then oops! My error. I shall think harder on the matter.
As it is, I relish the Law and try to understand it within its ancient context, then apply the meaning to my life. Most anyone is capable of doing this. Disagreements and mistakes will occur, of course, but so it is with any noble pursuit.
HOW DO YOU DO THIS? What moral reference frame are you using outside of the Bible? How do you make judgment calls that the Bible doesn't talk about? Is it magic? Or is it something that has nothing to do with Biblical authority at all?
Scholarship is magic?! Blast... Those eggheads have been holding out on me! I knew I should've trusted Rincewind over James Patrick Holding!
Context is one thing. Moral considerations are another, but can be informed by context and reason. "Hey, that guy has a gun! He's up to no good! Shoot him!" "He's just exercising his right. Also, he's a cop."
For example, if the Bible told me not to put relish on my hot dog, I would ask why. Perhaps relish was sometimes/always deadly back then. I could conclude that God wants me and everyone else to eat right, among other things.
The Bible doesn't address every moral dilemma that confronts/has confronted every Christian and Jew, everywhere, throughout the past, present, and future. That's where wisdom and prayer come in. However, God doesn't answer every prayer, and human wisdom is limited, but there is a difference between letting evil have its way, and fighting it however one is able, and as one understands how. I would say the latter is correct, certainly.
Or I could just point out that God is unfalsifiable and there has never been any scientific evidence of his existence and therefore any morality system based upon him is fundamentally flawed. BUT THAT'S CHEATING.
This is only an obstacle if one subscribes to philosophical materialism, because an omni-so-on God can only be non-physical. Any morality (which have to be non-physical) which follows from this presupposed "God is not" position is not only flawed, it is gibberish. One needs something that's backed by more than one's opinion, or the "will to power" kicks in.
re: that bible passage you mentioned, it's pretty damn clear god did NOT make it clear to all peoples that he existed etc. people born in china did not CHOOSE to deny abrahamic god's existence, they had no conception of it.
I'll admit that there was a lot of social pressure to conform when it came to ancient, collectivist civilizations (heck, that's still the case with modern ones). They were still religious. They could still think and ask questions, and perhaps keep conclusions to themselves. As for "making it clear," God performed miracles for His chosen people many times. They still rebelled. He sent them prophets, and they were killed. I doubt the same method would work wonders for the Gentiles, who didn't even have the Law.
If you want to say there was no precedent for people worshipping God seemingly unbidden, then... Whoa, hello, King Melchizedek. You snuck up on me, there.
re:hell the bible SPECIFICALLY mentions a LAKE OF FIRE. if that's not physical torment I don't know what is.
If we're talking about hell, then we're talking about a spiritual state, so this is hyperbolic metaphor. Physical flames can only consume a physical body.
I simply do not know. It is a mystery. "Society" can get on the ball and cure it, though. Surely, we, as caring, sane human beings, can do good for the insane and disabled? Why are we yelling at dad to bring the groceries in when we have legs and arms that work?
Your arguments are starting to to get prosey and you seem to be busy, but that analogy is a distortion of horrific proportion. You're ignoring that the God caused the problem in the first place. Or if Dad broke his kids' legs, in your example, that would be a better illustration of reality.
Also it being a "mystery" is a massive cop-out. I mean honestly. You seem to be talking about the completeness or superiority of a Christian outlook and then you just leave giant hole in it as far as mental diseases are concerned.
My posts are prosaic because I am attempting to be civil. If you find them to be dull, then no one's forcing you to reply. I do appreciate your replies, however...
I don't know much about schizophrenia. So I can't argue by preceding from every case being either in-born, or developed. I just kind of default to "God has a plan, but I don't know what it is." People are working to cure it. That's great! They ought to. I'm not going to proclaim that a person with schzophrenia is a sinner, or that it's the result of their parents sinning (take John 9:3 for an isolated example of what I'm sorta' on about).
Schizophrenia is only an example here, after all. I'm not going to sit here and try to weave every Bad Thing into an exhaustive biblical worldview, when it seems that only one unexplained Bad Thing makes God a very bad, awful, mean, bad, wicked, cruel person, or not exist. Again, I don't know much about schizophrenia, so this example catches me with my pants down.
As for me being "busy," that's not the case anymore, but I'm bowing out of the thread. I'm not claiming victory. I wasn't posting to convert anybody. It turns out these long replies are mentally exhausting for me (judge that how you will; it's your right), and I was anxious all yesterday, and part of today. I think that's connected. We'll see.
Burrito, I'm sorry that I didn't reply to your post. Thanks for humoring me there. If you want my thoughts later, I can supply a PM, or you can catch me on AIM or Yahoo! some time. I doubt it, but I'm offering.
