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Author Topic: Middle School Theology  (Read 28192 times)

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sei

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #180 on: July 04, 2009, 02:54:11 AM »

Jesus was asked which commandment was most important, and replied that if you have to pick one, it can't be any individual commandment, but it must be the single principle behind the commandments: respect for God and other people. [citation needed]
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Mongrel

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #181 on: July 04, 2009, 03:56:38 AM »

Just so you guys know, the Ontological Argument is this thread's equivalent of Godwin.
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Brentai

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #182 on: July 04, 2009, 07:58:48 AM »

In that case, we are literally debating whether or not Cannon is a Nazi.
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Kashan

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #183 on: July 04, 2009, 09:21:33 AM »

Basically though I think it comes down to this, for a Jewish person the authority they follow is the covenant between god and his people in the form of the law, and it's dangerous to focus on the 10 commandments at the risk of ignoring the rest of the law. For a Christian the authority they follow are the teaching of Jesus, and placing focus on the 10 commandments is just odd, since the only time Jesus is ever asked about the law he says all you need to know is love god and love your neighbor.

Jesus was asked which commandment was most important, and replied that if you have to pick one, it can't be any individual commandment, but it must be the single principle behind the commandments: respect for God and other people.
That's an odd way to phrase Matthew 35, unless you're talking about something else in which case I have no idea what you're talking about.

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Arguably, Jesus held that the old law should remain ("Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets"), but it's not clear what that means for peoples who follow Jesus' teachings but didn't originally follow Hebrew law.

Yeah, I don't think Jesus ever intended for the existence of the Christian church.

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Should we interpret Jesus' teachings to say that his philosophy should not clash with a foreign nation's existing traditions?
I guess it depends on how you feel about Paul, he certainly would have agreed with that.
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JDigital

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #184 on: July 05, 2009, 03:24:54 AM »

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Jesus was asked which commandment was most important, and replied that if you have to pick one, it can't be any individual commandment, but it must be the single principle behind the commandments: respect for God and other people.

That's an odd way to phrase Matthew 35, unless you're talking about something else in which case I have no idea what you're talking about.

I think it's a reasonable interpretation of Matthew 22:34-40:

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Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
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Kashan

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #185 on: July 05, 2009, 09:58:13 AM »

Quote
Jesus was asked which commandment was most important, and replied that if you have to pick one, it can't be any individual commandment, but it must be the single principle behind the commandments: respect for God and other people.

That's an odd way to phrase Matthew 35, unless you're talking about something else in which case I have no idea what you're talking about.

I think it's a reasonable interpretation of Matthew 22:34-40:

Quote
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Yeah, I meant to write 22:35. I also just realized I misread your initial post, so never mind about the whole thing.
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Cannon

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #186 on: July 05, 2009, 09:15:25 PM »

Ok this is just silly. It is ludicrously simply to imagine a world without starvation, poverty, etc. Physical pain is stupid given it's just a glorified damage indicator. Fix that. Or maybe you could have perfect freewill and can do anything without boredom or whatever holding you back by just turning it off. This isn't hard.

Or we could take Cannon's black/white fallacy attitude toward a utopia an omnibenevolent/omnipotent deity could provide; where we are eternally happy cattle or 1/6th of the world is starving.

I can't argue every individual's notion of an omnibenevolent deity's utopia. I could probably see a problem with every one, however. For instance, I need a "glorified damage indicator" to avoid infection and horrible injury. Perhaps it's not hard because such universal hypotheticals are ultimately shallow?

My mind is just so enmeshed in this world where, yes, one-sixth of us are wasting away to bones and leather, that any proposed utopia seems to remove free will, not perfect it. If this has somehow lead to me presenting an either/or fallacy, then oops! My error. I shall think harder on the matter.

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As it is, I relish the Law and try to understand it within its ancient context, then apply the meaning to my life. Most anyone is capable of doing this. Disagreements and mistakes will occur, of course, but so it is with any noble pursuit.

HOW DO YOU DO THIS? What moral reference frame are you using outside of the Bible? How do you make judgment calls that the Bible doesn't talk about? Is it magic? Or is it something that has nothing to do with Biblical authority at all?

Scholarship is magic?! Blast... Those eggheads have been holding out on me! I knew I should've trusted Rincewind over James Patrick Holding!

Context is one thing. Moral considerations are another, but can be informed by context and reason. "Hey, that guy has a gun! He's up to no good! Shoot him!" "He's just exercising his right. Also, he's a cop."

For example, if the Bible told me not to put relish on my hot dog, I would ask why. Perhaps relish was sometimes/always deadly back then. I could conclude that God wants me and everyone else to eat right, among other things.

The Bible doesn't address every moral dilemma that confronts/has confronted every Christian and Jew, everywhere, throughout the past, present, and future. That's where wisdom and prayer come in. However, God doesn't answer every prayer, and human wisdom is limited, but there is a difference between letting evil have its way, and fighting it however one is able, and as one understands how. I would say the latter is correct, certainly.

Or I could just point out that God is unfalsifiable and there has never been any scientific evidence of his existence and therefore any morality system based upon him is fundamentally flawed. BUT THAT'S CHEATING.

This is only an obstacle if one subscribes to philosophical materialism, because an omni-so-on God can only be non-physical. Any morality (which have to be non-physical) which follows from this presupposed "God is not" position is not only flawed, it is gibberish. One needs something that's backed by more than one's opinion, or the "will to power" kicks in.

re: that bible passage you mentioned, it's pretty damn clear god did NOT make it clear to all peoples that he existed etc. people born in china did not CHOOSE to deny abrahamic god's existence, they had no conception of it.

I'll admit that there was a lot of social pressure to conform when it came to ancient, collectivist civilizations (heck, that's still the case with modern ones). They were still religious. They could still think and ask questions, and perhaps keep conclusions to themselves. As for "making it clear," God performed miracles for His chosen people many times. They still rebelled. He sent them prophets, and they were killed. I doubt the same method would work wonders for the Gentiles, who didn't even have the Law.

If you want to say there was no precedent for people worshipping God seemingly unbidden, then... Whoa, hello, King Melchizedek. You snuck up on me, there.

re:hell the bible SPECIFICALLY mentions a LAKE OF FIRE. if that's not physical torment I don't know what is.

If we're talking about hell, then we're talking about a spiritual state, so this is hyperbolic metaphor. Physical flames can only consume a physical body.

I simply do not know. It is a mystery. "Society" can get on the ball and cure it, though. Surely, we, as caring, sane human beings, can do good for the insane and disabled? Why are we yelling at dad to bring the groceries in when we have legs and arms that work?

Your arguments are starting to to get prosey and you seem to be busy, but that analogy is a distortion of horrific proportion. You're ignoring that the God caused the problem in the first place. Or if Dad broke his kids' legs, in your example, that would be a better illustration of reality.

Also it being a "mystery" is a massive cop-out. I mean honestly. You seem to be talking about the completeness or superiority of a Christian outlook and then you just leave giant hole in it as far as mental diseases are concerned.

My posts are prosaic because I am attempting to be civil. If you find them to be dull, then no one's forcing you to reply. I do appreciate your replies, however...

I don't know much about schizophrenia. So I can't argue by preceding from every case being either in-born, or developed. I just kind of default to "God has a plan, but I don't know what it is." People are working to cure it. That's great! They ought to. I'm not going to proclaim that a person with schzophrenia is a sinner, or that it's the result of their parents sinning (take John 9:3 for an isolated example of what I'm sorta' on about).

Schizophrenia is only an example here, after all. I'm not going to sit here and try to weave every Bad Thing into an exhaustive biblical worldview, when it seems that only one unexplained Bad Thing makes God a very bad, awful, mean, bad, wicked, cruel person, or not exist. Again, I don't know much about schizophrenia, so this example catches me with my pants down.

As for me being "busy," that's not the case anymore, but I'm bowing out of the thread. I'm not claiming victory. I wasn't posting to convert anybody. It turns out these long replies are mentally exhausting for me (judge that how you will; it's your right), and I was anxious all yesterday, and part of today. I think that's connected. We'll see.

Burrito, I'm sorry that I didn't reply to your post. Thanks for humoring me there. If you want my thoughts later, I can supply a PM, or you can catch me on AIM or Yahoo! some time. I doubt it, but I'm offering.
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Royal☭

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #187 on: July 09, 2009, 03:42:13 PM »

It's a waste of money but I don't see what's so terrifying about it. I mean, it's a non-denominational thing; that's kind of nice.

Either you have a guilty conscience, or you suspect it's the docking station for Mecha-Christ.

Was on vacation when I made the original post, and it just took off from there.  The reason I found the cross terrifying is because of this:



Imaging seeing that cresting the trees as you're going down the highway, and you get a degree of the impression it left on me.

Also, you know, that whole growing symbol of a pervasive, ever-growing evangelical group within my country that wants to see the current government replaced with a theocracy and you can understand the rest of my apprehension about it.  Christians will get up in arms if Richard Dawkins rents an atheism billboard, but most people don't give too shits about a 200 ft cross on the highway.

The Artist Formerly Known As Yoji

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #188 on: July 09, 2009, 04:10:46 PM »

Hmm...

Yeah, I'm siding with the "HOLY FUCK THAT'S TERRIFYING" camp.
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Kayma

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #189 on: July 09, 2009, 04:18:50 PM »

No huge crosses. No.   :negative:
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The Artist Formerly Known As Yoji

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #190 on: July 09, 2009, 04:29:02 PM »

I should've clarified that I'm with the side that's horrified by the giant Jesus sword embedded in the earth until the Second Coming, during which it will take flight on it's own and spontaneously immolate anyone who even looks at it.

...aw, the lettering on the billboard didn't show up :sadpanda:
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Smiler

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #191 on: July 09, 2009, 04:38:36 PM »



This is what I thought of when I saw that cross.
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Kashan

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #192 on: July 09, 2009, 08:23:49 PM »

It's just so fucking ugly too. It looks like the built the thing out of fucking aluminum siding.
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Pacobird

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #193 on: July 10, 2009, 05:09:58 AM »

I understand the giant Buddha statues, which not only are from a culture that has no beef with idolatry, but also do not worship Buddha as a god, instead as a respected enlightened figure.  

But I just can never understand how Christians can justify these things.  If a giant statue of a figure the builder believes to be god (or the son of god in this case, who is for some reason given more worship than god) isn't a idol, I have no idea what is.

A giant symbol of a torture device is more arguable. But still, having the 10 commandments right there...  (Hell, even if you know think the 10 commandments are only specifically for jews, it's forbidden by the Noahide laws which are for gentiles aswell.)

In like the 900s, tens of thousands of citizens of the Byzantine Empire killed each other over whether Christian icons were idolatry.

I guess we just sort of got over it after that?
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Mongrel

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #194 on: July 10, 2009, 05:31:13 AM »

In the 700's and 800's actually. And Byzantine Iconoclasm was in many ways a response to the Byzantine reverses against the Muslims, who forbade images of the prophet all along. Many Byzantines felt that their losses on the battlefield were incurred due to their decadent blasphemous idolatry.

Relevant Article.
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Pacobird

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #195 on: July 10, 2009, 06:45:33 AM »

Oh, that's right.  Anyway, I'd also be willing to play the "Christianity is a Roman Religion" card and say that Rome, at all points in its history, was EXTREMELY reliant on icons and sacrifices for its religious practice, and Christianity just compromised itself to absorb Roman practices and become more palatable to the masses.

(see also christmas, easter)
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Büge

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #196 on: July 10, 2009, 10:46:06 AM »

That's pretty much been the Christian M.O. from day one.

As Terry Pratchett put it:

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Retraining and redeployment, that is the key to survival (just as, in what we are pleased to call the real world, the old gods of Britain had a wash, a change of clothes, did something about their hair and became saints of the new religion. It's important to keep busy and be seen by the public, in case they forget you.).
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Pacobird

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #197 on: July 10, 2009, 11:54:43 AM »

My mind is just so enmeshed in this world where, yes, one-sixth of us are wasting away to bones and leather, that any proposed utopia seems to remove free will, not perfect it. If this has somehow lead to me presenting an either/or fallacy, then oops! My error. I shall think harder on the matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA
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sei

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Oh, God.
« Reply #198 on: November 03, 2009, 09:07:02 AM »

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Kazz

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Re: Oh, God.
« Reply #199 on: November 03, 2009, 09:28:46 AM »

* Available for sex anytime
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