Brontoforumus Archive

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:


This board has been fossilized.
You are reading an archive of Brontoforumus, a.k.a. The Worst Forums Ever, from 2008 to early 2014.  Registration and posting (for most members) has been disabled here to discourage spambots from taking over.  Old members can still log in to view boards, PMs, etc.

The new message board is at http://brontoforum.us.

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 ... 22

Author Topic: Middle School Theology  (Read 28182 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Pacobird

  • Just fell off the AOL cart
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65482
  • Posts: 1741
    • View Profile
Re: Oh, God.
« Reply #280 on: November 05, 2009, 06:48:47 AM »

Like those awful climate change people who don't want us to all die.


Actually, yes.  Those who are distorting climate change research in order to claim it isn't happening.  You might be disdainful of anybody who believes them and maybe you're right to be, but enough people are buying it to make it significant.

Intelligent design is not science, but Focus on the Family is not theology, either.


also more like all those awful climate change people trying desperately to clean up after the mess left by all the scientists and techno-futurists that came before them amirite

Quote
…societies must promote economic growth now and for all time. With growth, we are all better off. Without growth, we cannot afford to help the poor or to clean up the environment. We must get richer by pumping more oil, mining more ore, chopping more trees, consuming more widgets, so that we have new wealth to tackle climate change from burning more oil, to restore habitat damaged by logging, to help people displaced and poisoned by mining, to dispose of broken widgets. Welcome to the growth treadmill.

Taken from a slightly different, if related, context.
Logged

Detonator

  • You made me come back for THIS?
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: 42
  • Posts: 3040
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #281 on: November 05, 2009, 09:50:36 AM »

This topic has been successfully overmoderated.
Logged
"Imagine punching somebody so hard that they turned into a door. Then you found out that's where ALL doors come from, and you got initiated into a murder club that makes doors. The stronger you punch, the better the door. So there are like super strong murderers who punch people into Venetian doors and shit"

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #282 on: November 05, 2009, 10:21:44 AM »

I love how this topic is just a daisy chain of separate but identical other topics.
Logged

Mongrel

  • Emoticon Knight-Errant
  • kodePunc Team
  • Tested
  • *
  • Karma: -65340
  • Posts: 17029
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #283 on: November 05, 2009, 10:28:15 AM »

Yeah. Overmoderation nothin'. This is the perfect thread for a merger.
Logged

LaserBeing

  • invisible murder cube
  • Tested
  • Karma: 25
  • Posts: 1261
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #284 on: November 05, 2009, 04:26:32 PM »

It never ceases to amaze me how people think Agnosticism is "hedging your bets". It's just admitting that I don't know either way.

Quote
Atheism need not be borne out of arrogance

but often is

Doesn't anyone else find it kind of arrogant to try to presume the existence of some kind of superhuman but still human-like intelligence that is responsible for creating and maintaining the entire cosmos, possibly solely for the benefit of humans? The idea of any kind of supreme being seems kind of irritatingly anthropocentric if you ask me. It's the same kind of backwards tautological thinking that suggests that since human life evolved on Earth, and would not have done so if the world was even slightly different, clearly the planet was made just for us.

Whatever the creative force of the universe is, it is likely so alien to us and our way of thinking that calling it a "god" would be woefully inadequate. Assuming we could even recognise it if it bit us in the ass.
Logged

Kashan

  • Tested
  • Karma: 9
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #285 on: November 05, 2009, 05:31:34 PM »

It never ceases to amaze me how people think Agnosticism is "hedging your bets". It's just admitting that I don't know either way.

Quote
Atheism need not be borne out of arrogance

but often is

Doesn't anyone else find it kind of arrogant to try to presume the existence of some kind of superhuman but still human-like intelligence that is responsible for creating and maintaining the entire cosmos, possibly solely for the benefit of humans? The idea of any kind of supreme being seems kind of irritatingly anthropocentric if you ask me. It's the same kind of backwards tautological thinking that suggests that since human life evolved on Earth, and would not have done so if the world was even slightly different, clearly the planet was made just for us.

Whatever the creative force of the universe is, it is likely so alien to us and our way of thinking that calling it a "god" would be woefully inadequate. Assuming we could even recognise it if it bit us in the ass.
I think you just have a small view of what the word god should mean. The Christian theologian Rudolph Otto proposed a concept called Mysterium Tremens which basically said that any creator god would be so alien and powerful that it should cause humans a kind of cthonic horror. Plus the bible says all over the place that got is weird, inhuman, and alien, that's kind of the point of Jesus. I mean the Jews gave him a name that couldn't be spoken. The old man in the sky bit is pretty recent. Apophatic theology even says that making positive statements about the nature of god is tantamount to idolatry.
Logged

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #286 on: November 05, 2009, 05:49:49 PM »

God probably has no idea that it is God.

In before Haruhism.
Logged

Friday

  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65374
  • Posts: 5122
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #287 on: November 05, 2009, 05:51:26 PM »

For the record: I also believe faith, or belief in a god, is also often born out of arrogance.

My point is we know so little about how the universe actually, really works that ascribing to a gnosis, or an explanation of origin, seems premature to me.
Logged

LaserBeing

  • invisible murder cube
  • Tested
  • Karma: 25
  • Posts: 1261
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #288 on: November 05, 2009, 06:48:42 PM »

any creator god would be so alien and powerful that it should cause humans a kind of cthonic horror.

People talk about how religion helps reassure people, but this is part of the reason I actually find it more reassuring to believe there isn't a god.

If God didn't exist, Mankind would have had to invent Him.
If God does exist, we should probably figure out a way to kill it.


Anyway, to clarify, I was not strictly talking about the "bearded sky wizard" version of god. My point was that the idea of "intelligence" is human-biased by default. We don't actually know what intelligence is beyond the fact that we think we are the only things that have it. Trying to foist it on a vast and unknowable universe is a case of our reach far, far exceeding our grasp.
Logged

Kashan

  • Tested
  • Karma: 9
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #289 on: November 05, 2009, 07:18:09 PM »

any creator god would be so alien and powerful that it should cause humans a kind of cthonic horror.

People talk about how religion helps reassure people, but this is part of the reason I actually find it more reassuring to believe there isn't a god.

If God didn't exist, Mankind would have had to invent Him.
If God does exist, we should probably figure out a way to kill it.


Anyway, to clarify, I was not strictly talking about the "bearded sky wizard" version of god. My point was that the idea of "intelligence" is human-biased by default. We don't actually know what intelligence is beyond the fact that we think we are the only things that have it. Trying to foist it on a vast and unknowable universe is a case of our reach far, far exceeding our grasp.
Yeah, what comfort comes from religion comes from the community and from the certainty that comes with tying one's self to a system of practice. When you look at the metaphysics the earliest religions were mostly just rituals for warding of ghosts and evil spirits, and current evangelical Christianity is pretty focused on the fear of hell.
Logged

Pacobird

  • Just fell off the AOL cart
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65482
  • Posts: 1741
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #290 on: November 06, 2009, 05:29:14 AM »

God probably has no idea that it is God.


This is actually kind of the idea behind Sikhism. 

Honestly, at the very least that religion is utterly fascinating.
Logged

Büge

  • won't give you fleaz
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65304
  • Posts: 10062
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #291 on: November 06, 2009, 07:30:27 AM »

And you get a sweet knife free of charge.
Logged

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #292 on: November 06, 2009, 10:16:57 AM »

God probably has no idea that it is God.


This is actually kind of the idea behind Sikhism. 

And Azathoth!

Surprised nobody's mentioned classical Buddhism yet.  Siddhartha basically answers the "claiming to know what God is is arrogant" argument with "Okay I'll tell you what, I'm not going to tell you shit about how God or the universe works.  I'm going to teach you how to figure that out for yourself, so you don't misinterpret me and get any fucked up wrong ideas."  And then everybody misinterpreted him and got a lot of fucked up wrong ideas.
Logged

Mongrel

  • Emoticon Knight-Errant
  • kodePunc Team
  • Tested
  • *
  • Karma: -65340
  • Posts: 17029
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #293 on: November 06, 2009, 10:40:09 AM »

I used to know a lot more the history of world religions. Studied it informally for a time out of a purely historical interest rather than a spiritual one.

When you study it for a long time, you begin to see that it eventually boils down to a deperate attempt to get people who will be born long after you're gone to conform to your idea of good behaviour.

Sometimes, those views were well-intentioned and fair, sometimes they were horribly biased, other times they were mostly okay, but had odd idosyncrasies thrown in.

Over time, ceremony and idol worship creeps in and the hairsplitting starts as unforseen situations come up. People try to hijack the original message which can be too vague, too specific, or both at the same time. Your words are interpreted and reinterpreted a million times over by everyone in their own personal way. In the worst cases, the spirit of the thing dies off and the edifice of a religion becomes a tomb for its own values.

It's this tragic, fumbling attempt to build something that will outlive you, for what you think is the betterment of the species. Or at least your tribe.

It's a big part of why I'm so disdainful of arguments on sematics, quantification, hairsplitting, and other tools of the theologian, lawyer, or bureaucrat. It's also a part of why I refuse to rely excessively on any system of rules or belief in particular.

That stuff is useful in it's own way, but it just tends too much toward the small minded, short-term thinking of those who refuse to take responsibility for themselves.
Logged

Brentai

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o
  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65281
  • Posts: 17524
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #294 on: November 06, 2009, 10:54:33 AM »

Stop me if you've heard this one before.

When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.
Logged

Büge

  • won't give you fleaz
  • Tested
  • Karma: -65304
  • Posts: 10062
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #295 on: November 06, 2009, 05:32:36 PM »

That sounds suspiciously like that story about penis-tips getting sliced off.
Logged

Frocto

  • Admin
  • Tested
  • Karma: 76
  • Posts: 2628
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #296 on: November 07, 2009, 10:39:12 AM »

This "God is alien and unknowable" bit honestly feels a bit played out to me by now.

The Being God

By Frocto


The Being God is the fact that the same energy that let our ancestors live is in us right now letting us live.

When I clap my hands, I use the exact same particles, energy, motion, etc that someone used to clap their hands thousands of years ago, or some dinosaur used to eat the shit out of some other dinosaur. That is God enough for me.

Energy, kinetic, thermal, nuclear or otherwise, is a presence that was here at the start of the world and can be quantified as the very thing that lets us live and breathe. It cannot be used up and it cannot die. That is something I can identify as a deific being worthy of worship.
Logged
"And it is because they have fallen prey to a weakened, feminized version of Christianity that is only about softer virtues such as compassion and not in any part about the muscular Christian virtues of individual responsibility and accountability."

LaserBeing

  • invisible murder cube
  • Tested
  • Karma: 25
  • Posts: 1261
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #297 on: November 07, 2009, 01:43:05 PM »

The problem with the "God is alien and unknowable" argument is that, just like every other defence of God's existence, it's completely unfalsifiable. Imagine 65,000,000 years into the future when the giant-brained cyborg space fish that we evolve into finally master the underlying fabric of all dimensions and build a particle accelerator so big it creates micro-universes inside of it instead of just sissy black holes, and yet have still found no evidence of a supreme being. You could still just wave your hands and say "well God is unknowable so he is probably still around he is just invisible". People will stretch and twist the definition of a deity so much just to get some concession that yeah OK I guess there could be something that it loses all meaning. The Higgs boson is nicknamed the "god particle", does that mean I should build a shrine to it and let it into my heart? Does the universal probability field care if I go to church on Sundays?

The answer is "of course not, stupid". Debating the possible or quasi-possible existence of an invisible, intangible, ineffable something is an utterly pointless waste of time and neurons. The only place where God has any room to be a "real" entity is inside the human mind, which is perhaps no less valid or important, but let's please stop kidding ourselves about reconciling general relativity with the Torah.
Logged

Misha

  • Pro-Choice
  • Tested
  • Karma: 3
  • Posts: 837
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #298 on: November 07, 2009, 01:48:35 PM »

my problem with the whole god is ineffable argument is even if you say that god exists, if he's unknowable he may as well not exist. You can't reasonably base any of your actions on the will of a deity you can't comprehend.
Logged

sei

  • Tested
  • Karma: 25
  • Posts: 2085
    • View Profile
Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #299 on: November 07, 2009, 01:55:30 PM »

Part of its will is supposedly made comprehensible via revelation.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 ... 22