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[Büge]

So these are traits universally shown by figures of authority throughout history?

Was Martin Luther King Jr. an evil individual, or was he not actually influential?

How about Ghandi?

That's why I said 'In general.'  Also, my personal definition of Evil has an "And is willing if not eager to harm, usually but not necessarily violently, those in the way of attaining their ambitions" clause in addition to the traits mentioned above.

Also, honestly working towards peace takes away a fuckton of points from the 'evil' character trait.

So what would you say is the split here? 80-20?

The only things being split here are hairs.

[Pacobird]

So Catloaf shouldn't be expected to back up his claim that those who seek power always do so for the wrong reasons?  Or he should be able to weasal out of it with OH WELL I SAID GENERALLY HOMPH DICKS

For the life of me I can't figure out if you've all gotten really lazy about sucking each others' dicks over the years or if I was that stupid at 23, too.

[Classic]

I honestly let it slide because I assume you guys were trying to be funny and didn't stop to think you had just said something kind of horrible. Unless of course I think it is a good opportunity to say something equally funny/horrible. Which is all the time. :strongbad:

[Catloaf]

Um, while you can bring up Ghandi, MLK, etc.  If you read a history book, I think you'll see that before a few hundred years ago, virtually every world leader everywhere (save for Buddha and a few other religious figures) was a crazy murderous bastard--see everyone in the middle-age europe, rome, waring china, feudal japan, and many other places.  My claim was based throughout all of human history, and a swing at America's current members of Congress.

[Classic]

MLK was not without his share of hilarious character flaws! In his youth, if you pissed him off, he would make a point of stealing your girlfriend. He did that stuff. He is my hero.

[TA]

And backing Bayard Rustin's ejection from the SCLC wasn't exactly happy love tolerance time.

[Doom]

Um, while you can bring up Ghandi, MLK, etc.  If you read a history book, I think you'll see that before a few hundred years ago, virtually every world leader everywhere (save for Buddha and a few other religious figures) was a crazy murderous bastard--see everyone in the middle-age europe, rome, waring china, feudal japan, and many other places.  My claim was based throughout all of human history, and a swing at America's current members of Congress.

Here is a man who won some serious god damn wars and then went on to modernize his country in the name of Enlightenment.

Catloaf, let's be honest here. It is a very curious phenomenon that the vast majority of men cannot inherit so much power and/or money before they become cartoonishly evil. But to hold it as an absolute truth is no less cartoonish. Furthermore, your argument goes up in smoke the instant it is casually mentioned that any one of those "murderous bastards in the East" might have actually, BY GOD, had a good reason to fight. The one I linked just happens to be a personal hero. But to dismiss the intentions and motives of so many men, so many great men, so casually, without an ounce of consideration for their circumstances and beliefs... well, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't used to it from you by now.

Perhaps you should read a history book, eh?

[Pacobird]

see everyone in the middle-age europe,

Louis the Pious

Saladin and Richard the Lionhearted (notably directly opposed to one another)

 

rome,

Should I start just with the Emperors or do you want to go back a bit?

Augustus
Claudius
Vespasian
Nerva
Trajan
Hadrian
Marcus Aurelius
Constantine
Septimus Severus

...and however many other decent, if hapless, emperors who lasted a year or less.

waring china,

Since the Warring States period (which I assume you are referring to, lolnerds) is apocryphal to begin with, you can't call Cao Cao a villain and not call Liu Bei a hero.

feudal japan,

Shingen was lionized after his death because of his skill and fairness as an administrator, not because he opposed Nobunaga.

 

a swing at America's current members of Congress.

then run for office.  Oh wait!  You can't actually do anything to be the change you see in the world; that would make you evil!

[JDigital]

If you read a history book, I think you'll see that before a few hundred years ago, virtually every world leader everywhere (save for Buddha and a few other religious figures) was a crazy murderous bastard--see everyone in the middle-age europe, rome, waring china, feudal japan, and many other places.

It could be that you just never heard of the boring ones.

[Mongrel]

Why are people responding seriously to Catloaf's utter failure at history?

[Misha]

if no one ever does how will he learn?

[JDigital]

Well-informed people are harder to disagree with.

[sei]

Also, honestly working towards peace takes away a fuckton of points from the 'evil' character trait.

Warbringers work toward peace, provided that it is on their terms.

[Catloaf]

Yeesh, can't someone make gross generalizations on the internet and merely be taken as an idiot and forcefully enlightened at the expense of their (mother fuck, forgetting the word; ~'How worth-while one see's one self to be') anymore?

Even in my responses I was making gross generalizations!  And while everyone else has realized my role in things, Paco Bird still feels the need to take me seriously for some reason!

And how the fuck is Constantine, the only one I recognize, on your list of 'non-murderous bastards'?!??!  THE FUCKING REASON HE BELIEVED IN CHRIST IS BECAUSE HE WON A BATTLE WITH A CROSS ON HIS SHIELD!!!  If you lead an army for anything but purely defensive reasons, you're a murderous bastard!  And That is not how Rome did things.

Let's get this straight:  I am a pacifist who believes that it is wrong to harm anyone no matter what the circumstance, even it I might not have the personal strength of will to do so (Thank god, I've never had it tested).  So I will only recognize pacifists, or at the very least deeply regretful murderers on such a list.

Also, honestly working towards peace takes away a fuckton of points from the 'evil' character trait.

Warbringers work toward peace, provided that it is on their terms.

Bringing war to make peace is not working for peace.  It's using doublethink to justify a war.


EDIT:  On further thought on my personal knowledge of history, I'm starting to once again get angry at my public education, as I was usually at the top end of the class, but I never actually learned anything.  I learn almost all my non-biblical history from the history channel.  For religious history, I had a college course, which I fear lost depth in it's reach for breadth.

[Mongrel]

Constantine, the only one I recognize

[Royal☭]

I am touched.

[Pacobird]

Even in my responses I was making gross generalizations!  And while everyone else has realized my role in things, Paco Bird still feels the need to take me seriously for some reason!

You should probably not be so complacent with mediocrity.

And how the fuck is Constantine, the only one I recognize, on your list of 'non-murderous bastards'?!??!  THE FUCKING REASON HE BELIEVED IN CHRIST IS BECAUSE HE WON A BATTLE WITH A CROSS ON HIS SHIELD!!!  If you lead an army for anything but purely defensive reasons, you're a murderous bastard!  And That is not how Rome did things.

I was referring to Constantine's restructuring of the Imperial bureaucracy that reduced his own authority in order to promote stability.

[Misha]

wait wait wait. So america in ww2 were murderous bastards? Hitler never attacked us.

[Mothra]

Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty dang anti-violence myself, but sometimes you have to act, and sometimes the only action available to you is a violent reaction. If we just laid down like a gaggle of limp-wristed Polandies in WWII we'd have a pretty shit deal going on right about now.

How does pacifism see the just succeed against the fanatical?

THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HEE-YAH, Catloaf, no furthah

[Frocto]

catloaf, if you're complacent with a shitty argument, that's basically just asking for people to insult you to score points and become more popular

finding a really fucking dopey argument and tearing it apart is in fact probably the easiest way to become ridiculously popular if you are willing to invest the time, as Pacobird has repeatedly demonstrated in the past