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[François]

Saint-Paul made tents to earn his living during his travels around the Mediterranean. If God didn't feed him...

[Norondor]

I don't think you can both be a True Believer and read the bible. It requires a certain special echo chamber that reading a book of fables, parables, political allegory and propaganda spanning aeons of human culture would effectively disable.

[sei]

Lawful Believer and Chaotic Believer get access to better domains, anyway.

[Brentai]

The saddest part is that this is actually a villain's backstory in the FotNS manga.

[sei]

Rachel Maddow discusses US "compassionate conservative" influence on AIDS in Uganda

[Catloaf]

Yep, they fully support killing gays.  They just know it's political suicide to admit it.  They also probably were only helping out with AIDS as a political move and the fact that it reinforces their belief that only a white man can save a person of dark skin, rather than actually wanting to help the Ugandans.

Fact:
Religion + Politics = Atrocious acts against humanity.

[Cannon]

Well, that's that. I better stop being a Christian conservative Republican before I end up curb-stomping a gay guy at a pride parade. Dodged that bullet, boy howdy.

[Mothra]

Rachel Maddow discusses US "compassionate conservative" influence on AIDS in Uganda

The proposed bill calls for the execution of any gay Ugandan who is HIV positive, who is caught having sex - death by hanging specifically. And it's not just gay Ugandans who are HIV-positive who are being targeted-

The sentence for just being gay, is life in prison.

The sentence for knowing somebody is gay, and not reporting them to authorities, is three years in prision.

WHAT?! Hoooly fuck

How does something like this happen?!

[Cthulhu-chan]

Ignorance and intolerance plus political power equals human atrocity!

[Catloaf]

Ignorance and intolerance plus political power equals human atrocity!

That's what I said.

[The Artist Formerly Known As Yoji]

Perhaps this will be the Solution that Finally ends Uganda's AIDS Problem!

...by the Maker, I hope my death-lovin' dad doesn't hear about this one...

[Büge]

A Final Solution, if you will.

[Mothra]

Good bit on Gawker about Uganda:
(I'm tl;dring with bold for all your fat, lazy, beady eyes)

Mainstream African attitudes toward gays are a weird (and quite familiar) mix of stone-cold homophobia and prurient fascination. You'll often hear it said in these political debates that homosexuality is a "foreign import" to Uganda, as if it were something that didn't exist before European colonialists arrived. We can be certain this isn't true—for one thing, there are ancient words for "gay" in African languages—but it's a perception that's taken hold, and it's certainly reinforced by the fact that most of the openly gay people in African cities tend to be European and American workers in the embassies, NGOs, and so on. So, when African politicians talk about "fighting the spread" of homosexuality, it's a way of appealing to anti-imperial sentiments as well as religious ones. Because they're so dependent on foreign aid, African countries are constantly being told what they should think by westerners, on everything from human rights to international trade. Bashing gays is a way for populist politicians to fight back with little consequence, because their constituents don't like gay sex (at least openly) and because most of the groups that are giving out aid (Western governments, foundations, charities) are disinclined to make fair treatment of gay people a condition of their assistance, on the general principle of bigger-fish-to-fry. If Uganda starts executing gay people (which I doubt will happen, for reasons I'll explain below) that could of course change.

As much as they claim to be repulsed by the idea of homosexuality, Ugandans are constantly devouring stories about gay life, via their media. The newspapers are full of pictures of gay marriages in San Francisco and gay pride parades in Germany. Probably once every six months someone does an intrepid investigative report about the existence of gay bars in Kampala. I was constantly asked questions about how I felt about gay people because the impression Ugandans got from reading the newspapers was that straight people in the United States were being overwhelmed by a wave of gay militancy. This was certainly reinforced by another strong and growing force in Ugandan (and African) society: the evangelical movement. American and African televangelists play 24-hours a day on a Ugandan broadcast TV channel, and the First Lady — also a member of parliament and a big time born-again — has people like Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn (household names in Uganda) up to the presidential mansion. The evangelists spread the message that America is on the road to perdition and Africa is a last bastion of Christian morality, etc. It's significant that the sponsor of this bill, David Bahati, put it forward after an international conference attended by several American "ex-gay" ministry leaders.

This would be a good time to mention that it's not ignorant or uneducated sectors of the Ugandan political class who are putting forward these proposals. In fact, the evangelicals tend to be among the most sophisticated and well-traveled members of the population. (Bahati's wikipedia page says he has a masters degree from the University of Wales in Cardiff.) The born-again movement has been very adept at making converts in the universities and among Ugandans who live in Europe or the US as students. One reason why this issue is so difficult to deal with is that the politicians who are most homophobic are often simultaneously the people who are most courageous on other "moral" stances that we want to encourage. For instance, when I lived in Uganda, one of the country's foremost anti-corruption crusaders and women's rights activists, a government minister named Miria Matembe, made a proposal to confine all gay people to a deserted island in Lake Victoria. There are also of course many Ugandans who have been exposed to Western culture and hold tolerant views. But my impression is that the trend is very much in the other direction—the evangelicals are in the ascendancy.

So, about this specific proposal: I am not there, so I can't say for certain, but my sense is that it is extremely unlikely that there will be mass executions of gay people in Uganda any time soon. (I know—that's setting the bar for tolerance rather low.) I don't know a lot about Bahati, but he is a member of the president's ruling party, which goes by the Orwellian name The Movement. That means he's not some random crank. However, the Ugandan parliament, you may be surprised to learn, is not exactly the most efficient deliberative body. If a bill does get passed, the judiciary is pretty independent and has shown itself willing to buck public opinion in the past. Finally, and most importantly, President Museveni is not a fire-breather on "moral" issues (he leaves that to his wife) and is well aware of the shitstorm of criticism that is likely to descend on the country if the law is passed. He's got bigger issues to worry about, like winning the next election over increasingly vocal opposition, and he's not going to want to endanger the country's life support system of foreign aid by mounting a pogrom against a highly visible minority that draws lots of sympathy in Western countries. The most likely scenario, I'd predict, is that the bill gets watered down to remove the death penalty stuff, is passed, and then, like all Ugandan laws, goes on to be rarely and haphazardly enforced. Among the things that are against the law in Uganda are: smoking in public places, prostitution, driving recklessly, and stealing public funds. These things all still happen, openly and blatantly, so I imagine that the comparatively underground gay community should be OK in the end.

Still, that's not very heartening in the big picture, I realize.

In summary, fuck organized religion

[The Artist Formerly Known As Yoji]

...huh. Good to know, I guess?

For instance, when I lived in Uganda, one of the country's foremost anti-corruption crusaders and women's rights activists, a government minister named Miria Matembe, made a proposal to confine all gay people to a deserted island in Lake Victoria.

I've only ever heard such suggestions in jest ("we should just send all those [deplorable minority de jour] to an island or something"), but I guess there's a first time for everything

[TA]

I don't think Huckabee was joking when he was suggesting that everybody with AIDS be put in camps.

[Brentai]

Okay, but I think the conclusion got a little muddled here.

Among the things that are against the law in Uganda are: smoking in public places, prostitution, driving recklessly, and stealing public funds. These things all still happen, openly and blatantly, so I imagine that the comparatively underground gay community should be OK in the end.

This is also true in America and in fact pretty much every civilization that has ever existed (well, except specifically for the smoking part) so I really don't know what the hell they're trying to say.  "Gay people will be okay so long as they don't get caught being gay?"  Let's take relief that Uganda will only be on par with the rest of the most intolerant places in the world?  I suppose if you were imagining a very literal Faggot Holocaust, then yes, you can take some relief that the Ugandan SS isn't going to find you and put you in a death camp.  Otherwise you're pretty much counting on the people around you being simply too lazy to persecute you for being homosexual.  It's not much of a relief.

I'm always amused by the suggestion that x or y minority be shipped off somewhere else, because I imagine it ending up a lot like Australia where the supposed penal colony ends up hoarding all the hot women and beer while the people who "got rid" of them get to enjoy their cramped little island with incredibly shitty weather.

[Kashan]

In summary, fuck organized religion

Yeah, because institutional hatred is something that can only occur under the influence of religion, and religion has never served as the rallying point for social justice.  

And really, half the problem we're facing here is how disorganized and without authority evangelical Christianity is.

[Mothra]

More that all the good parts of a religion are mixed alongside all of the blatantly evil elements of a religion in a mess that cannot be teased apart, because unlike a government or secular organization, right and wrong is determined by a set of infallible rules which one must abide by. There can be no reorientation of values, there can be no negotiation and resolution - one must take all the bad with all the good. This is how it is, and it cannot be fixed, because it is Right and cannot be altered by means of faulty mortal horsehockey like reason.

One reason why this issue is so difficult to deal with is that the politicians who are most homophobic are often simultaneously the people who are most courageous on other "moral" stances that we want to encourage. For instance, when I lived in Uganda, one of the country's foremost anti-corruption crusaders and women's rights activists, a government minister named Miria Matembe, made a proposal to confine all gay people to a deserted island in Lake Victoria. There are also of course many Ugandans who have been exposed to Western culture and hold tolerant views. But my impression is that the trend is very much in the other direction—the evangelicals are in the ascendancy.

If religion is used as the reasoning behind doing good, then you justify your actions by what religion says you should do, rather than what is something that should be done to reduce suffering. Thus we have bad things being done because religion says you should do so, and not because it will reduce suffering.

Organized religion gives the wrong reasons for doing the right things.

[Rico]

More that all the good parts of a religion are mixed alongside all of the blatantly evil elements of a religion in a mess that cannot be teased apart, because unlike a government or secular organization, right and wrong is determined by a set of infallible rules which one must abide by. There can be no reorientation of values, there can be no negotiation and resolution - one must take all the bad with all the good. This is how it is, and it cannot be fixed, because it is Right and cannot be altered by means of faulty mortal horsehockey like reason.

I'd argue that this is true of the far sides of religion, but is equally true of the far sides of any other political structure.

[Misha]

yeah, but people are far more rarely indoctrinated in political structures from birth. Every day kids are brought up to hate gays/jews/muslims/christians/whatnot but far less common are kids brought up to hate capitalist pigdogs or those monarchist bastards.