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[Brentai]

I dunno, are we talking about Batman, The Batman, The Bat-Man or The Goddamn Batman?

[Büge]

I dunno, are we talking about Batman, The Batman, The Bat-Man or The Goddamn Batman?

All of them, if you ask Grant Morrison.

[Transportation]

I'll assume you went back to the original Hebrew and found the word רצח in those passages, which is the specific type of killing outlawed in the commandments.

Time travel is among my many powers.

What?  It wasn't in there?

 

Are you trying to be cute? I can't tell if you're being a semantics whore (can't think of a nicer phrase, sorry) and saying women and children do not fall under that commandment (they do) or if you think declaring war on a city somehow makes murder impossible.

You do know what war crimes are, yes? Women and infants are not typically considered tactical targets, you know. The fact that God apparently has the power to declare murder OK when he wants a war is both bizarre and accurate. I suppose God doing the killing (c.f. Korah's Rebellion, for a more innocents-only example) is also a loophole under this scheme.

But please, explain how your clever translation and separation of 'murder' and 'killing' contradicts anything I have said at all.

Rahab's lies also receive tacit approval by being justified by her works (i.e. militarily useful). I'll throw that one on.

...I just want to know what the hell DOT has against Batman and Superman.

Fine, 100% better since Jesus technically 'kills' a lot of people in Relevations MY BAD.

[Brentai]

The fact that God apparently has the power to declare murder OK when he wants a war is both bizarre and accurate.

Not really.  Christian doctrine is that God can do whatever the fuck he wants even if it would be blatantly immoral and even fucked up for a human to do.  Because he's God, Q.E.D.

Essentially God is not meant to be a role model for humans; Jesus is a role model, but God is the immoral, impartial, and often hypocritical law.  Justifications for that range from the Judeo-Catholic "He may be an abusive drunken Father but he is still the Father and you must respect him" to the almost practical Baptist reasoning of "God is a completely psychopathic, bat-eating omnicidal lunatic who also happens to be completely all-powerful, so the best thing to do is obey absolutely everything the deranged fucker says and maybe he won't decide to shove his infinite spiked cocks into your soul's new asshole."

[The Artist Formerly Known As Yoji]

I always did kinda get the impression that people weren't seeking God's love more than they were dodging His wrath. At least that's how I come away from my dad's occasional doom 'n' gloom rants. Not too far removed from people worshiping dictators like Sadam Hussein or Kim Jong Ill, I think.

[Rico]

Are you trying to be cute? I can't tell if you're being a semantics whore (can't think of a nicer phrase, sorry) and saying women and children do not fall under that commandment (they do) or if you think declaring war on a city somehow makes murder impossible.

You do know what war crimes are, yes? Women and infants are not typically considered tactical targets, you know. The fact that God apparently has the power to declare murder OK when he wants a war is both bizarre and accurate. I suppose God doing the killing (c.f. Korah's Rebellion, for a more innocents-only example) is also a loophole under this scheme.

But please, explain how your clever translation and separation of 'murder' and 'killing' contradicts anything I have said at all.

1) Murder as a word means unlawful killing. (Both currently and as stated in the 10 Commandments by רצח, which translates pretty well into our concept of murder)
2) The Hebrew word for murder is not used at all in conjunction with wars which YHWH has ordered.
3) Other words are used instead of that word.
Therefore, the wartime killing of non-combatants was not murder according to Hebrew law and culture; wartime killing of non-combatants was not illegal under their society's laws.

A refresher on context:
This is all in response to your quote, "Any law can, and has if I remember my stories, has been overridden if God tells you to."

I asked you to provide an example of when God has overridden His law, which, given your strong implication that it happens a bunch, should not have been hard for you to do.  However, your example of killing which you (and I) find distasteful and which would be currently illegal under U.S. law (but unlikely to be prosecuted as a murder) is not an example of God overriding laws He has set down.

Therefore:
[Citation Needed]

I don't particularly care about your feelings on historical or present murder.  Rather, I took offense at your broad and unqualified claim which I think to be untrue, and asked you for some of the proof which is your burden.

[Kashan]

The fact that God apparently has the power to declare murder OK when he wants a war is both bizarre and accurate.

Not really.  Christian doctrine is that God can do whatever the fuck he wants even if it would be blatantly immoral and even fucked up for a human to do.  Because he's God, Q.E.D.

Essentially God is not meant to be a role model for humans; Jesus is a role model, but God is the immoral, impartial, and often hypocritical law.  Justifications for that range from the Judeo-Catholic "He may be an abusive drunken Father but he is still the Father and you must respect him" to the almost practical Baptist reasoning of "God is a completely psychopathic, bat-eating omnicidal lunatic who also happens to be completely all-powerful, so the best thing to do is obey absolutely everything the deranged fucker says and maybe he won't decide to shove his infinite spiked cocks into your soul's new asshole."

The central tenant of Christianity is usually something along the lines of "god is love." I'm sure there's some sect out there that doesn't approach it that way, but I don't think I've ever heard of any group that actually approaches it the way you're talking about.

[Rico]

Rahab's lies also receive tacit approval by being justified by her works (i.e. militarily useful). I'll throw that one on.

I wasn't even going to respond to this one originally because the thread is Middle School Theology, not Elementary School HURR HURR I'm Dumb Even for a Third Grader, but when I refreshed the thread in the morning an analogy popped into my head:

So, there's this fireman who's totally looking at some kiddie porn in the truck on the way to a fire.  When they get to the burning building, this guy does some amazing stuff and single-handedly saves a hundred people through his heroic actions.  He receives an award from the city.  Therefore, the city loves them some child porn, whoo!

[Catloaf]

Dude.  Killing in a war isn't murder. 

OR IS IT?! 

I don't know why I didn't respond to this line before.

It is.  I don't care if semantics say murder is only murder if it's unlawful.  Killing another human being is murder.  Capital punishment is murdering a criminal, but still murder.  War is large scale murder of people who are also trying to murder you.  When you kill another to save your own life, it is still murder.

I'm not saying murder can't be legally/rationally justified, but morally, it's the same weight put upon you.  No matter how much they deserve it.

Abortion however, is not murder.

[Pacobird]

The fact that God apparently has the power to declare murder OK when he wants a war is both bizarre and accurate.

Not really.  Christian doctrine is that God can do whatever the fuck he wants even if it would be blatantly immoral and even fucked up for a human to do.  Because he's God, Q.E.D.

Essentially God is not meant to be a role model for humans; Jesus is a role model, but God is the immoral, impartial, and often hypocritical law.  Justifications for that range from the Judeo-Catholic "He may be an abusive drunken Father but he is still the Father and you must respect him" to the almost practical Baptist reasoning of "God is a completely psychopathic, bat-eating omnicidal lunatic who also happens to be completely all-powerful, so the best thing to do is obey absolutely everything the deranged fucker says and maybe he won't decide to shove his infinite spiked cocks into your soul's new asshole."

The central tenant of Christianity is usually something along the lines of "god is love." I'm sure there's some sect out there that doesn't approach it that way, but I don't think I've ever heard of any group that actually approaches it the way you're talking about.

"Love" in the Platonic sense, which is probably better to characterize as "spiritual inclusiveness".

Incidentally, the early Gnostic Christians believed the Abramaic God was the Demiurge; the evil god that created the physical world to imprison humanity in an existence of pain and fear.  Jesus was a representative of the "true" God, the good God of the spiritual realm, from whom humanity had been unjustly severed by the demiurge.  This view, while popular around the 3rd and 4th Centuries, was suppressed by the Roman Church.

[Pacobird]

Dude.  Killing in a war isn't murder. 

OR IS IT?! 

I don't know why I didn't respond to this line before.

It is.  I don't care if semantics say murder is only murder if it's unlawful.  Killing another human being is murder.  Capital punishment is murdering a criminal, but still murder.  War is large scale murder of people who are also trying to murder you.  When you kill another to save your own life, it is still murder.

I'm not saying murder can't be legally/rationally justified, but morally, it's the same weight put upon you.  No matter how much they deserve it.

Abortion however, is not murder.

A great number of secular philosophers have dwelled on whether war is murder, and the general agreement is that it is morally permissible for a soldier to kill another soldier in a war, because to not do so would mean he himself would be killed.  The larger morality of the conflict in general is immaterial because the two soldiers in question are powerless to change the situation; they are moral equals.  Even if it is morally questionable to kill a soldier in war, it is vastly more questionable for an outsider to demand martyrdom from the individual that would be doing the killing.

By saying, "well, you shouldn't be a soldier if doing so means killing, i.e., becoming a murderer", you ignore that the volunteer army is a recent development and the VAST majority of soldiers in history in fact had no choice in the matter, and even if that were not the case, military action is frequently a necessity for survival.

^that is called "reasoning".  I would like you to apply this strange and wonderful technology to your stance that violence between soldiers is murder, but somehow abortion is not.

[Transportation]

1) Murder as a word means unlawful killing. (Both currently and as stated in the 10 Commandments by רצח, which translates pretty well into our concept of murder)

No, currently it means killing with intent, genius. No intent means it's manslaughter. If you're a soldier, nations have agreed on a separate set of rules. Not that it matters, because the Israelites violated those too! Genocide is just murder on a large scale, you adorable legalist.

2) The Hebrew word for murder is not used at all in conjunction with wars which YHWH has ordered.
3) Other words are used instead of that word.
Therefore, the wartime killing of non-combatants was not murder according to Hebrew law and culture; wartime killing of non-combatants was not illegal under their society's laws.

I like how your ignored the part about Korah's rebellion, which I guess isn't murder because they disobeyed God and therefore it's capital punishment.

That's why Stalin's reign of terror wasn't murderous, since it was legal!

A refresher on context:
This is all in response to your quote, "Any law can, and has if I remember my stories, has been overridden if God tells you to."

I asked you to provide an example of when God has overridden His law, which, given your strong implication that it happens a bunch, should not have been hard for you to do. 

I keep giving you examples, but you keep dismissing them.

Quiz time:
Does God Abraham ordering his son (and him obeying) not contradict your argument because:
A) God had not handed down the law to Moses
Rebuttal: Why is Cain a bad person, then? Because God didn't tell him to?

B) God told him he was kidding.
Rebuttal: You can't be serious.

However, your example of killing which you (and I) find distasteful and which would be currently illegal under U.S. law (but unlikely to be prosecuted as a murder) is not an example of God overriding laws He has set down.

Genocide = Murder on a grand scale. There's a requirement for intent and everything! As I said, God gets away with violating what our words means by defining morality however he wants. Which brings us to:

I don't particularly care about your feelings on historical or present murder.  Rather, I took offense at your broad and unqualified claim which I think to be untrue, and asked you for some of the proof which is your burden.

Are you sure? Because you're sounding like one of those moral relativistic Christian apologists that says God is still a good person because it was "different" back then.

So, there's this fireman who's totally looking at some kiddie porn in the truck on the way to a fire.  When they get to the burning building, this guy does some amazing stuff and single-handedly saves a hundred people through his heroic actions.  He receives an award from the city.  Therefore, the city loves them some child porn, whoo!

This is either a or you being amazingly dense.

HERE'S THE CONVERSATION:
Trans: God orders people to violate his laws all the time and whenever it's convenient.
Rico: No he doesn't.
Trans: What about Rahab?
Rico: By being a liar she let the Israelites in to slaughter the populace and thus benefiting God/Israel.
Or, reworded
God let Rahab violate a commandment because it was strategically convenient. I suppose he didn't order her to, but oh hey that would be hairsplitting. So you're probably going to do it!

It's not like the Bible is known for it's utilitarianism. Who benefited from Rahab's lies? Certainly not Jericho! It was the Israelites and thus God by proxy. He allowed it because it benefited him. He just threw a holy commandment out the window for that. The only consistent thing about the Bible is obey God. Rahab did his will therefore it was moral.

I will look around for some other examples while you start on the grain harvest.

[Pacobird]

DoT's previous post illustrates why I personally subscribe to the theory that the book of Job, in sharp contrast to the rest of the Bible, was probably an allegory constructed from whole cloth by a talented, educated author.  The other books are chronicles of God's works; Job is a metaphor for the Bible's message as a whole.

[Mongrel]

Dude.  Killing in a war isn't murder. 

OR IS IT?! 

I don't know why I didn't respond to this line before.

It is.  I don't care if semantics say murder is only murder if it's unlawful.  Killing another human being is murder.  Capital punishment is murdering a criminal, but still murder.  War is large scale murder of people who are also trying to murder you.  When you kill another to save your own life, it is still murder.

I'm not saying murder can't be legally/rationally justified, but morally, it's the same weight put upon you.  No matter how much they deserve it.

Abortion however, is not murder.

A great number of secular philosophers have dwelled on whether war is murder, and the general agreement is that it is morally permissible for a soldier to kill another soldier in a war, because to not do so would mean he himself would be killed.  The larger morality of the conflict in general is immaterial because the two soldiers in question are powerless to change the situation; they are moral equals.  Even if it is morally questionable to kill a soldier in war, it is vastly more questionable for an outsider to demand martyrdom from the individual that would be doing the killing.

By saying, "well, you shouldn't be a soldier if doing so means killing, i.e., becoming a murderer", you ignore that the volunteer army is a recent development and the VAST majority of soldiers in history in fact had no choice in the matter, and even if that were not the case, military action is frequently a necessity for survival.

^that is called "reasoning".  I would like you to apply this strange and wonderful technology to your stance that violence between soldiers is murder, but somehow abortion is not.

GODDAMMIT PEOPLE, SOME OF US ARE TRYING TROLL HERE. DO YOU MIND?

[Pacobird]

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=59963

[Misha]

Dude.  Killing in a war isn't murder. 

OR IS IT?! 

I don't know why I didn't respond to this line before.

It is.  I don't care if semantics say murder is only murder if it's unlawful.  Killing another human being is murder. 

You are not allowed to choose the definition of words for your own convenience. That is not how you debate ANYTHING. Because I could just as easily respond to your post saying. "I don't care if semantics say killing an innocent person in cold blood is murder. It isn't."

[Mongrel]

I'm pretty sure that semantics is responsible for a WHOLE LOTTA* deaths.

*_{actual figure as verified by painstaking research spanning three decades and nine continents. No you can't have a copy - YOU'RE TRYING TO STEAL MY TENURE! I SEE THROUGH YOUR LITTLE RUSE, MCREADY!}

[Pacobird]

Rhetoric is the formal denial of the idea that Words Mean Things.

[Fuchs]

Guys, I found the monster.  Get the flamethrower ready.

[KYON-KUN, DENWA.]

I've got a scalpel!