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Author Topic: Middle School Theology  (Read 28237 times)

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Misha

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #140 on: July 02, 2009, 07:57:50 PM »

Hey Cannon, do you stone women to death for wearing pants? Do you kill a man for working on the sabbath?

Because if you do not you are as guilty of discounting the law and the prophets as anyone else.

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Rico

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #141 on: July 02, 2009, 08:29:19 PM »

Or he could just not be very good at following the law and the prophets, but not be discounting them at all.

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Cthulhu-chan

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #142 on: July 02, 2009, 08:36:14 PM »

Which is just another flavor of hypocrisy?   :nyoro~n:

And just because some supposedly omnipotent dick says he is the Word and the Law, doesn't mean he's right.  Which is to say, tautological arguments have no traction.
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Kashan

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #143 on: July 02, 2009, 08:42:30 PM »

First off the ten commandments shouldn't really be that important to anyone.

Yes, because they were written, like, a really, really long time ago, and the ancients wur dum.

...I know what you're getting at with the rest of your post, Kashan, but please don't discount the Law and the prophets. I just couldn't resist, friend.

You say you got my point, but I have to assume you didn't based on your post. The point is that in the context of the "the law" as, Judaism has classically approached it, the 10 commandments aren't elevated and observed separately from the rest of the law. They're 10 rules among hundreds. The practice of taking the 10 commandenments separately and especially revering them doesn't make particular sense for either Christians or Jews.
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Rico

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #144 on: July 02, 2009, 08:43:50 PM »

And just because some supposedly omnipotent dick says he is the Word and the Law, doesn't mean he's right.
Yes, but as everyone tends to forget every time this comes up: You can't really pull "UR HUR HE'S NOT GOD" card in the middle of an argument which presupposes His existence.  You're certainly free to argue that there is no God or that the Hebrew god isn't God or that the Christian god isn't God or whatever independently, but, yeah, doesn't really work in this conversation.
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Brentai

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2009, 09:43:51 PM »

Man you just cannot let on that you actually admire God's enormous douchebag streak without all the devil's advocates trying to form their counterargument as you clearly don't admire him enough.

Since I cannot seem to suffer fools like that quietly, I've resolved to become another one of those strawmen atheists that nobody's particularly interested in challenging.   :mahboi:
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Rico

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2009, 09:46:22 PM »

 :perfect:
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Brentai

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2009, 09:48:00 PM »

There's no such thing as perfection.
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Burrito Al Pastor

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2009, 10:13:08 PM »

I can accept the idea that there is an omnipotent being. I can accept the idea that there is an omnibenevolent being. I cannot accept the idea that there is an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being; you can't justify it without limiting the scope of one of those two omnis.

Well, unless you want to argue that it's not good for people to be happy.
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I'm a heartbreaker... My name... Charles.

Mongrel

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2009, 03:18:35 AM »

Well, unless you want to argue that it's not good for people to be happy.

Not all the time, no.


*reads last page or so*

Man, maybe a splitmerge was a bad idea. Posting in this thread seems to make you guys INSTANT RETARDLY.
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Koah

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #150 on: July 03, 2009, 10:00:58 AM »

Man, maybe a splitmerge was a bad idea. Posting in this thread seems to make you guys INSTANT RETARDLY.

I like to imagine that there's another board someplace on the Internet full of Fundamentalists with a thread entitled "Middle School Science" that has the same problems for roughly the same reasons.
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Mongrel

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #151 on: July 03, 2009, 10:03:17 AM »

I :lol:'d
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François

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #152 on: July 03, 2009, 12:08:07 PM »

I would pay up to twenty dollars to see Fundie WFE for five minutes, even if only to see Bizarro ZedPower being a tolerated atheist.
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Cannon

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #153 on: July 03, 2009, 02:25:14 PM »

Hey Cannon, do you stone women to death for wearing pants? Do you kill a man for working on the sabbath?

Because if you do not you are as guilty of discounting the law and the prophets as anyone else.

No, I don't. I am not an ancient Israelite, but I am guilty according to the Law, because it was never there to establish anyone's righteousness. So I agree to sign Christ's contract and follow it.

As it is, I relish the Law and try to understand it within its ancient context, then apply the meaning to my life. Most anyone is capable of doing this. Disagreements and mistakes will occur, of course, but so it is with any noble pursuit.

This is without getting into the broader topic of, oh, capital punishment. I happen to believe that if one commits some immoral acts, their life is forfeit, and that person ought to be killed. I am not exempt, but that rather goes without saying.

You say you got my point, but I have to assume you didn't based on your post. The point is that in the context of the "the law" as, Judaism has classically approached it, the 10 commandments aren't elevated and observed separately from the rest of the law. They're 10 rules among hundreds. The practice of taking the 10 commandenments separately and especially revering them doesn't make particular sense for either Christians or Jews.

Regardless of any possible miscommunication, thank you for elaborating. My little dig at people who quote verses out of context didn't add anything, I'll admit.

I view the Ten Commandments as a good place to start, but a bad place to stop when it comes to understanding biblical morality. So, naturally, you want to have an eye for the whole covenant, but I'm not sure what you're getting at when you point out Jesus's compression of the Law. Is that preferable, somehow? Does it have the same problem as choosing Exodus 20 to emphasize? Please explain further.

Man you just cannot let on that you actually admire God's enormous douchebag streak without all the devil's advocates trying to form their counterargument as you clearly don't admire him enough.

Since I cannot seem to suffer fools like that quietly, I've resolved to become another one of those strawmen atheists that nobody's particularly interested in challenging.   :mahboi:

Look, if you want to make jokes about the God of the Bible's character as though He were any other fictional character, that's fine. It's the Internet. Ridicule or backhanded compliments are not good arguments, Richard Dawkins.

I can accept the idea that there is an omnipotent being. I can accept the idea that there is an omnibenevolent being. I cannot accept the idea that there is an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being; you can't justify it without limiting the scope of one of those two omnis.

Well, unless you want to argue that it's not good for people to be happy.

Hey, I'll take some of that action. If happiness is "good," then why are other states "bad?" Sometimes angry people get things done. Sad people can make us think about what's wrong around us. And so on. Sure, happy people can be productive (they can also be shiftless), but it's a transitory, subjective, and fragile state; same with other emotional states. What if your happiness is built on another's misery, for that matter? Do the ends justify the means? Only if you think your happiness is more important than mine. Would we always happily disagree? I doubt it.

Yes, this is me just kind of "cutting out" happiness as we understand it now, but what other example can I furnish?

Sure, I believe God could make us delighted and merry all the time, but that would make us cattle, not human beings. So I'm not really interested in "what ifs" as proof or dis-proof of God's existence and character. I'd rather go with what is. There is pain, but it can be a call to action. There certainly are consequences, but they can be learning experiences. There are mysteries, but they can be explored. None of these things would really exist in a state of eternal, blissful euphoria (really just a kind of intellectual oblivion, I do believe), and going by real life as the contrast, we would be the poorer for it. There's so much more to experience than just happiness.

Feel free to call me out on anything, Burrito! This did end up as something of a rant, but I like it, so I'm leaving it.

I would pay up to twenty dollars to see Fundie WFE for five minutes, even if only to see Bizarro ZedPower being a tolerated atheist.

Oh, man. Would Bizarro Cannon be socialist and bear an Indigo avatar, too?

Because Green Lantern funnybook references are what holds the multiverse of possibility together, obviously.
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Brentai

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #154 on: July 03, 2009, 02:27:32 PM »

God is a fictional character in a book.  Deal with it.   :mahboi:
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Cannon

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #155 on: July 03, 2009, 02:29:13 PM »

Thank you for sharing your perfect knowledge with me.
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Brentai

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #156 on: July 03, 2009, 02:29:56 PM »

Same to you.
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Cannon

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #157 on: July 03, 2009, 02:33:21 PM »

...Deep?
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Misha

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #158 on: July 03, 2009, 02:38:39 PM »

Are we cattle in heaven?

God wouldn't have to make us all mindless happydrones to make the world A LOT better. For the smallest, tiniest example, what the fuck does it help society to have schizophrenia exist?

And even claiming that there needs to be suffering in the world to make things interesting as it were, what about hell? Eternal (as in it goes on forever and there's nothing you can ever to do to change it or learn from it) damnation serves no purpose but vindictiveness. And it's a vindictiveness agains no one but himself. GOD allows entire nations of people to be born without knowledge of his word or belief in it, and then sends them to hell for it. Why do you think an entity that does this is worthy of worship?
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Transportation

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Re: Middle School Theology
« Reply #159 on: July 03, 2009, 03:23:07 PM »

Ok this is just silly. It is ludicrously simply to imagine a world without starvation, poverty, etc. Physical pain is stupid given it's just a glorified damage indicator. Fix that. Or maybe you could have perfect freewill and can do anything without boredom or whatever holding you back by just turning it off. This isn't hard.

Or we could take Cannon's black/white fallacy attitude toward a utopia an omnibenevolent/omnipotent deity could provide; where we are eternally happy cattle or 1/6th of the world is starving.

Quote
As it is, I relish the Law and try to understand it within its ancient context, then apply the meaning to my life. Most anyone is capable of doing this. Disagreements and mistakes will occur, of course, but so it is with any noble pursuit.

HOW DO YOU DO THIS? What moral reference frame are you using outside of the Bible? How do you make judgment calls that the Bible doesn't talk about? Is it magic? Or is it something that has nothing to do with Biblical authority at all?

I have never gotten an honest/convincing answer to this question, ever, btw. If morality flows from God then you're pretty screwed if you have to wing it all the time when the Bible is useless vague.

Or I could just point out that God is unfalsifiable and there has never been any scientific evidence of his existence and therefore any morality system based upon him is fundamentally flawed. BUT THAT'S CHEATING.

:mahboi: Also, God would be a war criminal if he was real!
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