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[Mongrel]

...Hillary Clinton spent a second straight day in Kentucky, where she is favoured to win when its voters head to the polls the same day.

She attended worship services at a Methodist church in Bowling Green, and happily sang hymns and joined in Bible readings. But her smile faded when the pastor launched into a sermon about adultery, asking his congregants whether the devil had ever whispered over their shoulders in their marriages.

[Burrito Al Pastor]

America will deserve whoever it elects.

Yeah, I'm about sick of hearing that.  To suggest that the entire country deserves to suffer because a slim plurality picked a greater-evil candidate in a rigged electoral system...well, you know better than that and are clearly engaging in hyperbole, but I still find it a pretty obnoxious statement.

But it's still fair to say that half the country deserves it, right?

[Guild]

This country deserves whomever it elects in a sins-of-the-father kind of way since we're the ones who allowed our government to become an autocratic bloated tick.

i no how to spel

[Thad]

But it's still fair to say that half the country deserves it, right?

Maybe the ones who have simply lost their jobs for it.

But the Bush voters who have died in Iraq, or who drowned due to the failures in New Orleans?  I don't think they should have paid for their mistake with their lives.

This country deserves whomever it elects in a sins-of-the-father kind of way since we're the ones who allowed our government to become an autocratic bloated tic.

Who's "we"?  I'm twenty-five years old.  While I'd love to see better voter turnout from our generation (and it's looking like Obama's going to help with that), it's a hell of a stretch to say we helped get this country into the mess it's in.

[Classic]

I think he's asserting that if we must be blamed, it would be only for having parents who did not predict that their actions would create said bloated tick. And I'm not really willing to touch that one.

I want to think of Obama as a new, more effective JFK. Mostly because I feel like unfounded cynicism is creeping into everything I do and say, when really I prefer unfounded optimism. [Insert emoticons containing at least 1 derp]

[Mongrel]

How dare you guys have parents! What the fuck do you think this is, some kind of luxury camp?

[Thad]

I think he's asserting that if we must be blamed, it would be only for having parents who did not predict that their actions would create said bloated tic(k?). And I'm not really willing to touch that one.

Point stands.  It's still punishing the many for the actions of the few; my parents aren't any more to blame for the state we're in than I am, and to blame it on their generation is awfully abstract.

[Brentai]

Many who live deserve death, many who die deserve life, can you give it to them blah blah blah.

[Guild]

I think he's asserting that if we must be blamed, it would be only for having parents who did not predict that their actions would create said bloated tic(k?). And I'm not really willing to touch that one.

Point stands.  It's still punishing the many for the actions of the few; my parents aren't any more to blame for the state we're in than I am, and to blame it on their generation is awfully abstract.

"The few" being whom? It takes more than 50% (usually) of the population to elect our Prez. And I'm mostly being obtuse about political practices in general guess I'm a troll hurf blurf

[Thad]

Many who live deserve death, many who die deserve life, can you give it to them blah blah blah.

Hm.  You're agreeing with me, right?

"The few" being whom? It takes more than 50% (usually) of the population to elect our Prez.

Because we have 100% voter turnout.

[Guild]

"The few" being whom? It takes more than 50% (usually) of the population to elect our Prez.

We do not have 100% voter turnout in this country.

If a man does nothing in the face of deterioration he is blameless, then?

[Thad]

False choice.  Blame is not a binary value.

There are plenty of reasons not to vote, an obvious one being that some people can't afford to miss work, and another obvious one being that most people don't feel that either candidate represents them in any given election.

That doesn't mean they're not partially responsible for the outcome of the election they don't participate in, but they're less responsible than, say, the people who financed the Swiftboat ads (or Kerry for failing to defend himself).

[Classic]

There are some things that really aren't any one entity's fault. Our government being a, "bloated tick" would probably be one of those things. Assigning culpability after-the-fact in something so pervasive is by its very nature going to be somewhat arbitrary and/or symbolic.

Personally, I'd blame the military-industrial complex. But this is because I'm a goddamn hemp growin' hippie. Guild's assignment of blame, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't actually believe it as anything more than an exercise in an "if-I-had-to-choose" game, would reveal his high personal expectations for the population at large as rational human beings.

You're free to make all sorts of comments about who on this forum puts that belief to the test. I know I've already run through and deleted at least five of them for being particularly trite.

EDIT: While I'm peddling bullshit pop psychology, I'm going to say that Thad believes in truth as a cornerstone of our society and a lie as its most infectious and dangerous enemy! You know... next to outright madness and/or trolling.

[Thad]

There are some things that really aren't any one entity's fault. Our government being a, "bloated tick" would probably be one of those things. Assigning culpability after-the-fact in something so pervasive is by its very nature going to be somewhat arbitrary and/or symbolic.

Agreed.  Even greed and self-interest are simply the result of billions of years of evolution; I believe they're character flaws, but the people who succumb to them aren't entirely to blame as the alternative is working against a pretty heavily pre-programmed survival instinct.

That doesn't let them off the hook, either.  Like I say, it's not binary, it's a continuum.

As far as lies as society's most dangerous enemy...I think my biggest takeaway from 1984 is that the truth delivered from a skewed perspective is far more dangerous than a lie.

Everything O'Brien says in the Ministry of Love is true.  And that's the most terrifying thing of all.

(Since Brent brought up LotR, that idea's in there, too; Sauron is unable to control Denethor directly through his Palantir, but ensures that every time he looks into it he sees only the misery and despair in the world, which ultimately drives him to madness.)

[Guild]

...they're [nonvoters are] less responsible [for the state of the union] than, say, the people who financed the Swiftboat ads (or Kerry for failing to defend himself).

I'd say it was the nonvoting non politically active who sat back and allowed others to take this road and therefore allow such things to become standard practice.

The original constitution parsed that only 10% of the population should govern the rest (land-owning [and therefore rich] white men). Maybe that was a better system. Not the rich white men bit, but the 10% leads 90% bit. Have any other countries in the world instituted an academic requirement to democratic voting? Like a MA you get that allows you to run for office or vote for leaders?

[Mongrel]

Hate to break it to you Guild, but the whole point of pretty much every voting reform ever enacted in the western world throughout most of the 19th and early 20th centuries was because people of those times figured out that any form of non-universal suffrage wasn't true democracy at all.

Our predecessors weren't necessarily stupid just because they live two hundred years ago.

Now, if you're going to argue that democracy is a non-workable idea, then sure, try that tack. Just do it by coming in the front door, not sneaking in the service entrance.

[Burrito Al Pastor]

The original constitution parsed that only 10% of the population should govern the rest (land-owning [and therefore rich] white men). Maybe that was a better system. Not the rich white men bit, but the 10% leads 90% bit.

What's the saying? 20% of the people do 80% of the work? Do you really think it's a good idea to legislate which 20% that is?

Have any other countries in the world instituted an academic requirement to democratic voting? Like a MA you get that allows you to run for office or vote for leaders?

That was the plot of Starship Troopers.

I'm honestly not sure that an education is all that beneficial to voting turnout; if anything, a decent education in math and/or political science just underscores how completely unimportant any single person's vote is.

[Mongrel]

It's also an incredibly bad idea in a country where higher education is still based on a user-pay system. HMMMMMMM WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAPPEN...

Not that it would work in country with a socialist education system either, because then all kinds of idiots who have no business trying to get an MA (or whatever atrbitrary benchmark you pick) in anything would be doing just that.

[Guild]

The original constitution parsed that only 10% of the population should govern the rest (land-owning [and therefore rich] white men). Maybe that was a better system. Not the rich white men bit, but the 10% leads 90% bit.

What's the saying? 20% of the people do 80% of the work? Do you really think it's a good idea to legislate which 20% that is?

Apparently I do. Did you read my post?

Have any other countries in the world instituted an academic requirement to democratic voting? Like a MA you get that allows you to run for office or vote for leaders?

That was the plot of Starship Troopers.

I'm honestly not sure that an education is all that beneficial to voting turnout; if anything, a decent education in math and/or political science just underscores how completely unimportant any single person's vote is.

That's a really hopeless attitude. Just because something is near-impossible to measure doesn't make it unimportant.

I'm very much aware of the insignificance of my vote but I still consider it important.

[Royal☭]

Wait, you mean the top 10% of the population isn't already ruling the rest of America like tyrants already?