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[Doom]

An effective one? No. I mean I'm sure we could turn ourselves into a slightly less effective version of the Iraq insurgency against a much more powerful counter insurgency, but that's about it. Any effective guerrilla warfare against an invading enemy would probably use explosives as the primary tool and not guns anyhow. Also, in respect to Shinra's statement, I don't think heroism has anything to do with it, if our defenses fell against a military invasion then I don't see guerrilla heroism, with or without guns, making a real difference.

Explosives make an insurgency more effective. If things got bad enough for it to be feasible for a redneck pride militia to use IEDs to fight back at Canadian/Chinese/French invaders, don't assume they aren't willing to lose the few good ol' boys it takes to figure out how to make them. It's not like those Iraqi fellas were using anything more complicated than a basement/garage and hoping they only lose one of the superfluous fingers.

It's not even an issue of effectiveness. The subject of what a logistic nightmare it is to occupy hostile, civilian-rich land is another discussion. But of all the things you'd have trouble getting a bunch of Americans to do, fighting back against hostile invaders is pretty low on the list. We're a huge, solid land-mass with a prideful population. Insurgencies get along really well when they have civilian support. The only thing that could go wrong for the American Insurgency is some sort of comically liberal traitors twirling Snidley Whiplash mustaches.

My only real strong feeling about gun rights is that you should have them if things go Fallout on us. Isolationist Survival Fantasies are fantasies: you make a gang or a tribe that has some ordinance. So you know, I have no real strong feelings about realistic gun control.

[Mongrel]

Never, ever underestimate the insurgent.

Especially when they've had two decades of CIA training and as many years of solid combat experience fighting in an insurgency?

<- I need this blown up to ten times the size.

[SCD]

I just want to say, holding down my deepest spite to you eastern-educated liberal pussies that this centrist, athiest, non-discriminating redneck might know something here. 

1)  This is the root of the culture war.  Religion at this point seems to be something we can point at or rally at. 

2)  In Iraq, the effective sunni resistances (not AQI) were instrumental for the US forces to secure the sunni areas over a large period of time.  Until they could be haggled with, their turf was walked by those who they agreed walked on that turf.  Petraeus understood this to great effect and negotiated his way into creating an effective town structure and local police and militia (soon integrated into the military) force from what was once a real honest-to-god resistance movement. 

Those who know that the downfall of society come from within through pushes of outside forces and organizations and quietly prepare for them do not become the rulers of tomorrow, but they do become the kingmakers of tomorrow. 

3)  Most of the professional people in western society can be seen to be the lynx.  The lynx usually specializes in one type of food, and when there is an abundance of this food usually excels in life. 

There are those in life who can be seen to be the grizzly bear.  The grizzly bear is a clumsy slow creature who will eat just about anything it can.  In the best of times, the grizzly will just get by..

However when the food becomes scares, the lynx usually die off while the grizzly just gets by. 

Historically, golden ages are something of an anaomaly.  Do not believe anything except that those who live in Europe and North America are in anything but a golden age where personal freedom, information, change, food and the deeper understandings flourish. I personally do not know when that time may be over, but due to those reasons, I am in the pro-firearms camp and take great pride in knowing how to use proficiently, and accurately most firearms I can come across, and how to handload their ammunitions. 

This is information and training I hope for the sake of those around me that I never have to use, such as the knowledge of martial arts or military science.

[Shinra]

Never, ever underestimate the insurgent.

Especially when they've had two decades of CIA training and as many years of solid combat experience fighting in an insurgency?

<- I need this blown up to ten times the size.

Considering that the overwhelming majority of the Afghanistan and Iraq/Iran war era soldiers are either serving noncombat command roles or have long since died in combat or as a result of disease or famine, I'm calling bullshit on this argument. It does not take incredible training to build an explosive device and strap it to a car, your body, or your car and your body. I've never served a day in the military or a law enforcement agency and I can build a bomb out of a bag of fertilizer and the chemicals under my sink. So can anyone else with an internet connection.

An effective insurgency is built on willpower alone. Nobody was fucking training the VC and they kicked our asses up and down the jungle for the better part of a decade.

[SCD]

An effective insurgency is built on willpower alone. Nobody was fucking training the VC and they kicked our asses up and down the jungle for the better part of a decade.

Nobody was fucking training the VC

internet connection

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

[Mongrel]

LAWLZ

Waiiiit for it...

Waaaiiiiiiiiiiiittt for it.......

[Shinra]

You're taking my statement out of context - on the topic of insurgency, AS IT RELATES TO THE UNITED STATES, we are in an even better position to create an insurgency than others simply because of the amount of tools and information available to us. The Vietcong didn't have the internet, obviously, but they certainly had books, and despite vastly inferior technology and training, they put up an incredibly effective insurgency - eventually beating us out of Vietnam.

If your response to my arguments is an animated gif and some emoticon spam, I think it's very telling as to how you feel about your own opinions and their validity, as you certainly don't seem particularly willing to defend them.

[Mongrel]

Would you like a shovel good sir?

Digging that hole with your bare hands appears to be very labour intensive and painful.

[Shinra]

Would you like a shovel good sir?

Digging that hole with your bare hands appears to be very labour intensive and painful.

I understand you want to divert the conversation away from your immensely stupid inference that the CIA trained the entire Iraq and Afghan insurgency for 20 years, but this isn't a super great way to do it.

[SCD]

Nope. 

We aren't.  The spirit of the pioneer era of the North American way died with my grandmother who was a WWII vet.

To paraphrase what the canadian contributors said about the american contributors to the spanish civil war, "the sort of people who would starve in a grocery store".  As a military trainer who has a greater access to a cross-section of Canadian society, I see the signs greater than you bourgeoisie types.


However back on the real argument of arms, there is a book out there that effectively debunks all the "legally obtained" guns are evil myth called "more guns less crime, understand crime and gun control laws" by John R Lott, jr, which is a statistical analysis and a really boring read.  Really boring. 

If you want to pick a particular page to jump to, I would go straight to page 62 which discusses rape statistics for females where concealed-carry permits are issued to a higher proportion of the female population. 

Again, everything they talk about is fact-checked and annotated, unlike our musings so far.

Good night

[Doom]

At least SCD gets it. Sometimes we rap about the hypothetical. I guess he used it as jumping board to tell us what cowards we are for not already being in the military or something, but hey, at least he gets it.

Ok, so fantasy-land:

Strictly speaking, the internet is a pretty integral presence in the world.

It's not like the answers and training are on Google, but if we're talking about the US and consider it's infrastructure, once again it is a logistic nightmare: how're you gonna cut off that territory you don't have? It'd be a ridiculous endeavor to silence the first, single state. So you know, strictly speaking, Internet is probably a yes. It's impact is a mystery.

Which is curious. I'll admit that I could just be blowing smoke out of my ass on what is a hypothetical discussion derailed from a hypothetical in another hypothetical discussion. Mongrel seems to have somehow acquired a PhD in an imaginary field from an alternate or future reality.

Or he's just being obnoxious and rude in all debates as a matter of thoroughness and dedication to his posting style?

[Shinra]

Nope. 

We aren't.  The spirit of the pioneer era of the North American way died with my grandmother who was a WWII vet.

To paraphrase what the canadian contributors said about the american contributors to the spanish civil war, "the sort of people who would starve in a grocery store".  As a military trainer who has a greater access to a cross-section of Canadian society, I see the signs greater than you bourgeoisie types.

There's a big difference between contributing to a foreign war and defending your own soil against a foreign invader. You haven't given one good reason that we wouldn't provide an effective insurgency other than your own opinion on how superior you are to the rest of us, which I think does not count as a valid argument on this topic???

[Mongrel]

Would you like a shovel good sir?

Digging that hole with your bare hands appears to be very labour intensive and painful.

I understand you want to divert the conversation away from your immensely stupid inference that the CIA trained the entire Iraq and Afghan insurgency for 20 years, but this isn't a super great way to do it.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to do.

At least SCD gets it. Sometimes we rap about the hypothetical. I guess he used it as jumping board to tell us what cowards we are for not already being in the military or something, but hey, at least he gets it.

Ok, so fantasy-land:

Strictly speaking, the internet is a pretty integral presence in the world.

It's not like the answers and training are on Google, but if we're talking about the US and consider it's infrastructure, once again it is a logistic nightmare: how're you gonna cut off that territory you don't have? It'd be a ridiculous endeavor to silence the first, single state. So you know, strictly speaking, Internet is probably a yes. It's impact is a mystery.

Which is curious. I'll admit that I could just be blowing smoke out of my ass on what is a hypothetical discussion derailed from a hypothetical in another hypothetical discussion. Mongrel seems to have somehow acquired a PhD in an imaginary field from an alternate or future reality.

Or he's just being obnoxious and rude in all debates as a matter of thoroughness and dedication to his posting style?

No, I'm just trolling Shira because he started talking out of his ass.

CARRY ON.

[Shinra]

Would you like a shovel good sir?

Digging that hole with your bare hands appears to be very labour intensive and painful.

I understand you want to divert the conversation away from your immensely stupid inference that the CIA trained the entire Iraq and Afghan insurgency for 20 years, but this isn't a super great way to do it.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to do.

Well, I guess we found the difference between you and guild - at least when you're being a cock, you're willing to admit you're being a cock instead of trying to pretend like what you were saying was valid at all.

[Mongrel]

I do however have a PhD in an imaginary field from an alternate future reality.

[Mongrel]

P.S. SCD is the only one in this thread who knows what the hell he's talking about.

[Doom]

You mean I got my facts about an imaginary scenario wrong?

I'll never get this published!

[Mongrel]

You think that's hard? Try getting imaginary Tenure!


<sub>P.P.S I can't wait for Thad to find this thread.

*schoolgirl giggles*</sub>

[Doom]

[SCD]

alright shinra, it looks like I can't stay away so I might as well explain something of insurgency.

When I refer to the pioneer attitude and culture, I believe the bloc party says this the best:  "If it can be broke then it can be fixed, if it can be fused then it can be split
It's all under control".

This attitude is still a nessecity in the impovrished nations moreso than ours where everything can be thrown away and repurchased for a fraction of the cost of mending it in terms of man hour-dollars.  We are a culture of the lynx which focus more on the technological front than others. 

These bombmakers out east don't have the internet, a decent source of water, or pop tarts in their MRE's.  Same with the vietcong, both using skillsets handed down by their respective  guerilla-trainers, intelligence organizations.  What they have is grit and knowledge passed down not from the blago-sphere, but instead from shops and practice.

There are a lot of hardasses in your rural areas that still 'have it', as well as the arms collections that would make any would-be repressive governments repress their ambitions who come from many walks of life.  They will not ask for much and will invite you into their culture.  Some of them are more intelligent than others, and on the flipside some are more biggoted.  Those people would be the effective insurgency when rallied under the right banner, so long as the government keeps just enough control through the rule of law. 


I feel I should sum up, so here we go:

Executive Summary
1)All the myths you may or may not believe about gun control are statistically inaccurate.  You are not alone in your ignorance, and this is dangerous as those who disrespect the law will always be well armed.  If you wish to read more from a competent source that has yet to be put down by a competent source, John Lott is an authour you wish to start with.  After that at least you can have a place to start proving or disproving myths or his statements as opposed to using gut feelings.

2) Most people in the civilized world live in a golden age where careers are based on the fundamentals of mass-production.  This is a good thing when times are good, but would mean disaster if times sour.  Those who remain armed and can form effective militias then will not be your militaries in the worst case, but the militias.  They will be your guide back to better days, but for now they will be marginalized.

3)  Transportation is correct:  You will not be invaded by China, Russia, or South America due to real geographic reasons, and in case of global catastrophe you will be the best-suited to rebound.  You are also geographically blessed in having two neighbours who require you to be a strong nation in order to maintain their own well-being.  This is unique.

4) My anger is not from the use of god-awful terms of wishy-washy arguments which have no statistics, stories, or personal experience to back them up.  People are using their gut feelings

5)  Doom should join the army.  If you see him, ask him why he hasn't enlisted yet

That's it.  Thanks for challenging me again to make my point.  You anger me, but this is a healthy type that says "calling you a shitpump is the weak way out, where explaining to the fullest is the smart way to go.."