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Author Topic: Ball Based Philosophy  (Read 3048 times)

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Defenestration

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Ball Based Philosophy
« on: August 27, 2009, 11:12:00 AM »

Source: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=311

For the record, I voted no though I question the astuteness of the average child still of ball playing age to register all this information. Also, I would probably just ask a grown up to get it or do it when no one's looking.
Quote
You’re the new kid in the neighborhood. This neighborhood runs alongside a fast-moving stretch of a four-lane highway. On each side of the highway are nice little houses with yards. You meet the other kids. They seem friendly enough. Soon after meeting them you discover that they have a rule: Never, ever go near the road.

No child is permitted within ten paces of the road. The grass in the yards reveals that they obey this rule unfailingly. The grass is green and untrampled for the ten paces closest to the road. There is a visible line in the grass between the yellow grass where they travel freely, and the green grass where they Do Not Go. They seem to even be a bit apprehensive about getting close to this line. They do so only at need, and only for a few seconds before running back to their friends near the center of the yard. Nobody ever told them explicitly that approaching the road would lead to death, but the rules were laid out so firmly and so carefully and with such sternness that the kids have concluded it would. None of them has even had the nerve to test this theory.

While it isn’t nearly as deadly as they think, the highway can be pretty dangerous if you’re careless. You figure that whoever made the rule was probably thinking, better safe than sorry.

To help make friends, you have brought with you a brand-new bright red kickball. The kids admire the ball and welcome you into their group. A game of kickball starts up. Once the game is going strong and everyone is having fun the unthinkable happens: Your ball gets knocked right over the road and lands in the opposite yard. Your new friends are horrified. They act as though the ball had just plunged into a pit of deadly vipers.

As far as they are concerned, the ball is gone forever. It’s unrecoverable. But you know better. You’ve been around roads like this before and you’ve been taught how to cross them. You could, if you wanted, walk right up to the edge of the road, wait for a gap in traffic, and get to the opposite side with little risk. You’ve done it before and you know it’s not that hard. Your parents never made any rules against crossing the road, and none of the other parents has any authority over you, so by doing so you won’t be breaking any rules. However, you also know you will be utterly smashing a taboo for these kids. To them just getting near the road is a suicidal act. To cross is unthinkable.

You could do it. You could get your ball and bring it back, but to do so you would overthrow their thinking in regards to the highway. Once they knew the road could be crossed, they would inevitably want to do it themselves. Sooner or later, they would try it on their own. They might not do it right away. They might not do it when you’re around, but it will happen. You could tell them not to do as you do, but you’re a smart kid and you know that telling them not to do something you are doing is tantamount to a dare. Are you going to let the new kid get away with that? Get over there and show him he’s not so special.

So what do you do? It took you a little while to learn to cross safely. Crossing takes patience and clear thinking. If you choose to break this taboo, are you willing to take on the responsibility of teaching all of them how to do it? If so, you will be aiding them in defying the rules. You are free to cross, but teaching these other kids against the will of their parents is quite another thing. What about the younger hyperactive kid that is watching you? He doesn’t seem to have the patience or the maturity for crossing safely, and you don’t have the authority to forbid him. He wouldn’t listen to you anyway. In fact, he’s most likely going to be the first of the kids to get up the nerve to try.

You are free to cross. No rules forbid you from doing so. It is (for you) reasonably safe. Your new ball is over there. Should you follow the overbearing rules and accept the loss of your ball? Or do you get the ball, knowing that to do so may lead one of these kids to endanger themselves?

We’re talking about kids, but approach the question with your grown-up mind: Would you get the ball?
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Doom

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 11:14:03 AM »

Yes.
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Brentai

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 11:19:38 AM »

It's a fucking ball.

Were it an important item, like, say, freedom, then yeah, I'd teach them all to be rebels and patriots.  But no.  It's a ball.

The exchange rate of one ball to one future zealous revolutionary is not to my taste.  I am playing the long game.  Such sacrifices now are necessary to our future glory.

Our time will come, Fritz.  Our time will come.
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MarsDragon

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 11:44:44 AM »

Why can't you find an adult to go get your ball?
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Kazz

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 11:45:04 AM »

Best-case scenario, I get screamed at by the parents of the other kids when their snotnosed brats decide they, too, are capable of crossing the four-lane highway.

Worst-case scenario, every other fucking child in the neighborhood becomes a red skidmark within the week.

We'll play Doctor instead.  Then, later that night when none of the kids are out and traffic is lighter, I'll go get my damn ball.  And then I'll tell the other kids that I got one of my parents to get it for me, if they ask.
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Doom

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 12:12:31 PM »

I think a problem you guys are having is that you assume that because you have the courage and conviction and intelligence to solve a problem and get your ball back, you are suddenly responsible for other human beings who exist after your decisive act. Especially if they're less fantastically capable than you are.

If every other child is a red skidmark within a week, I still have my ball and the tenacity to keep it.
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Classic

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 12:13:31 PM »

Doom just got dark side points.
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TA

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 12:26:56 PM »

So, it's the tragedy of the commons.
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Defenestration

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 12:55:53 PM »

I think a problem you guys are having is that you assume that because you have the courage and conviction and intelligence to solve a problem and get your ball back, you are suddenly responsible for other human beings who exist after your decisive act. Especially if they're less fantastically capable than you are.

If every other child is a red skidmark within a week, I still have my ball and the tenacity to keep it.
The purpose of the ball was to fit in and make friends with said children though!
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yyler

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 12:58:18 PM »

I'd probably start throwing their shit to where my ball is to see when they break.
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Sharkey

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 01:05:19 PM »

Get the damn ball. Then tell them, their parents, and anyone who will listen how fucking suicidally reckless it is to outright forbid a potentially dangerous but occasionally necessary action rather than having the fortitude and foresight to prepare people to deal with such situations when they inevitably arise.

I mean, like, duh.
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R^2

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 01:08:25 PM »

Yeah, false dichotomy. There are tons of better options than what we're presented with here.
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Classic

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 01:10:21 PM »

False dichotomy
You fools! Bioware has taught us that all moral dilemmas are binary (trinary tops).

Also, you're not politicians. Don't do that dodging the question bullshit.
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Doom

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 01:15:22 PM »

Quote
The purpose of the ball was to fit in and make friends with said children though!

These are mutually exclusive problems.

I want to fit in.

I want my ball.

And if you're too nice, I don't want to inspire children to cross the highway and be killed.

The first one, I want to fit in, well ok. You have a ball.

The second one interferes with the first. Ok, so I must retrieve my ball.

The third does not matter to the first two. I had my ball, I fit in. I lost my ball, I retrieved my ball, I resumed fitting in. Everyone else being run over does not make me not fit in any more.

Perhaps you mean that we must assume that if I want to fit in, I care about those I fit in with? Well, I'd suggest that is a shift in priorities. I wanted to fit in, I wanted my ball, but now I realize that my self-reliance is more valuable than any social acceptance, so not only have I solved my problems but I've grown as a person.

The only true problem would be if after I retrieved my ball, the other children shunned me for daring to break the rules. At this point I would not fit in but I would be self-reliant. I may feel bad for a moment, but ultimately I win because I don't get hit by a car.
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Classic

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 01:17:40 PM »

Please imagine I've put a huge image of Triea from KotOR2 here.
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Bongo Bill

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 01:26:15 PM »

Setting a dangerous precedent should not be done lightly, even though I bear no responsibility for my imitators*. Personal responsibility is only one term of the polynomial, maybe or maybe not the highest-order one. I am under no kind of coercion; the highway is not a tyrant but a force of nature beyond my influence for the time being, so there is no moral dimension to resisting its domination.

Rules (and laws, and the firmest taboos and norms, etc.) exist for a reason; as long that reason is sound and it is tolerable to do so, it is far preferable to avoid violating them. In this case, however, I am not bound by any particular law imposed from the Powers that Be (e.g. mom and dad), only the norms of the group, and, as I am a newcomer, those norms do not bind me as tightly as they do the others. But, on the mutant third hand, the entire purpose of the ball was to become ingratiated with the group; following their rules and partaking in the commiseration over the tragedy of the lost ball would also serve that purpose in the short term.

I retrieve the ball when they're absolutely not looking (if it is safe to do so), or contact someone on the other side to throw it back across, or fetch a parent.

* This is not quite clear-cut. When discussing personal responsibility with regard to the actions of others, it is typically assumed that anyone who responds to my action takes responsibility for their own actions. This is possible because of some trait they possess that enables them to take that responsibility fully. Most commonly, this "trait" is identified as rational agency; children are arguably not rational agents, and so by this hypothesis, a child would be unable to take full responsibility for their actions, very likely rendering me culpable after all.
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Kashan

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 01:46:00 PM »

I'm always amused when people are willing to bite the bullet and hold to an ethical system that doesn't asknowledge consequences.
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François

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 02:07:56 PM »

Most commonly, this "trait" is identified as rational agency; children are arguably not rational agents, and so by this hypothesis, a child would be unable to take full responsibility for their actions, very likely rendering me culpable after all.

But in this case, you're a kid too, so you can't carry the responsibility either.

"Logically" the responsibility shifts to whoever taught you the skill in the first place, but that would be a tremendous error. It'd be like holding someone who teaches gun safety responsible for the actions of every untrained idiot with a gun.

I think that the responsibility here falls entirely on the shoulders of individual children's parents.

Children are rational agents, but in general they are incomplete (immature?) ones, and therefore require effective guidance. In the case at hand, why do the kids refuse to approach the highway? Is it because they've been carefully told about the risks involved and their consequences, or because they've been threatened with physical violence (i.e. spankings) as the consequence to disobedience? I am sure that a child who has been correcly taught about the dangers of the highway is more likely* to remain safe despite the actions of others, because he has a better grasp on what's going on. On the other hand, a child who has been trained to obey solely in order to avoid to punishment has no incentive not to try crossing, if he thinks he can get away with it; he doesn't know why the road should be avoided, he just knows that his dad will hit him if he's caught.

*: And by "more likely" I don't mean "guaranteed". There are always outside factors.
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Frocto

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 02:12:03 PM »

This is sophistry bullshit that some jackass made up so he and his friends could feel like they're better than conformists. For every single one of these things there's going to a million motherfuckers who turns it into an anecdote about how they're better than everyone else.

I mean, just look at this thread.
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Friday

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Re: Ball Based Philosophy
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2009, 02:20:20 PM »

Why did the Friday cross the road?

To get her ball back and cause all the other kids to become tasty roadkill
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