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Author Topic: Videogames are just too much work!  (Read 5873 times)

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Mongrel

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2009, 07:06:17 PM »

Actually, come to think of it, the biggest problem with simulating a "CCG-like" game is simulating credible opponents. I think game AI has REALLY lagged for some time now.

Just look at RTS games, where lazy design has usually mean that a "harder" opponent just means the computer builds faster than a human can multitask, can always see you, has unlimited resources, or other silly fallbacks.

When you look at the actual AI strategies, they seldom have even the simplest stuff - things like sneak attacks, scouting, true resource management for long or short term goals, etc.. Instead the computer will tend to spam a given unit or number of units, rarely use them in concert, and generally behave like a stereotypical Machine Menace. In the end, you're not trying to outthink an opponent, you're racing a clock or a bank account. All this does is reward the twitch-city idiots.

It's embarassing. Fifteen years later and we still have major game companies that make computer opponents attack in scheduled waves. We might as well be playing Space Invaders.
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Doom

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2009, 07:11:56 PM »

Bear in mind that a great deal of the player base is not advanced enough to notice, realize or even meet these challenges.

I imagine the first true "real AI" games will be uniformly condemned as too damn hard at first.

If you can stand more WoWtalk, I could tell you about Faction Champions Boss.
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Alex

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2009, 07:18:28 PM »

Except that several FF players did not use Aerith because Cure Materia + All Junction replaced anything "unique" she could do so that when she dies, we're left wondering why we're supposed to care.

People used or cared about Aerith?  The other reason she got into my party is because it was mandatory.  After I knew it was mandatory, I'd level her to a respectable point then drop her like the deadweight she is. :nyoro~n:

Actually, come to think of it, the biggest problem with simulating a "CCG-like" game is simulating credible opponents. I think game AI has REALLY lagged for some time now.

Just look at RTS games, where lazy design has usually mean that a "harder" opponent just means the computer builds faster than a human can multitask, can always see you, has unlimited resources, or other silly fallbacks.

When you look at the actual AI strategies, they seldom have even the simplest stuff - things like sneak attacks, scouting, true resource management for long or short term goals, etc.. Instead the computer will tend to spam a given unit or number of units, rarely use them in concert, and generally behave like a stereotypical Machine Menace. In the end, you're not trying to outthink an opponent, you're racing a clock or a bank account. All this does is reward the twitch-city idiots.

It's embarassing. Fifteen years later and we still have major game companies that make computer opponents attack in scheduled waves. We might as well be playing Space Invaders.

Superficial difficulty is pretty much everywhere.  It's depressing that most of the strategy for harder modes is 'Heal/Try to dodge more often because it does more damage' (see: MMOs and raids, FPS games, Megaman games...well, everything?) rather than 'Behavior is less predictable'.

The computer is just going to keep being a cheating bastard until someone figures out an actual good solution.  ::(:
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Brentai

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2009, 07:50:09 PM »

Unreal Tournament is the case study for this.  The AI programmers spent a lot of time putting in different difficulty levels and behaviors for the AI bots.

The end result is that anybody who played on anything less than Godlike criticized the AI for acting retarded.  Later releases of Unreal Tournament has the bots always follow the same pro-gamer behaviors, but on lesser levels they don't shoot as accurately.  Nobody said a peep.
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Catloaf

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2009, 08:28:13 PM »

It's at least seemed like a few fighting games have had the right kind of computer opponents.  Where they eventually at least appear to get gradually better at countering my style of attacking.  I think it was soul caliber that did it best.  I know SF4 didn't work that well, in that it would always let me win first round on any difficulty, then be a challenge second round, and then be positively lame on the third round, god damn stop spamming that fucking move, seth you bald blue mother fucker.

I think AI people need to try to master not just finding the best way of doing something, but also the worst, and a few arbitrary levels between the two.  Otherwise it's just realtime computer logic, rather than an artificial recreation of human/animal intelligence as the name suggests.
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McDohl

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2009, 08:29:29 PM »

Seth is always a weapons-grade douchenozzle on the second and third rounds.
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James Edward Smith

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2009, 08:35:37 PM »

I think this idea will probably have to wait until the advent of virtual reality.  Along with technology to convert thoughts into digital matter since it really sounds like Blow wants the freedom and experiences of tabletops (which come from the group of players more often than not) combined with the playability of a videogame.

But this is really just my interpretation of it.

I don't really see this to be the case. As I said, Dwarf Fortress is a perfect example of the concept but I don't want to give the impression that a game that follows this design philosophy needs to have anywhere near the complexity that Slave to Amok 2 has. Civilization represents the concept almost as well and is much less complex. Again, I don't want to suggest that  only strategy and decidedly "sim" games are the only things that can do this. A platformer could easily allow for the same sort of feeling, they just need to be truely open ended or at least somewhat like say EVO only a little better in terms of mechanics (EVO was kinda boring other than the novelty of the concept).
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Detonator

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2009, 09:24:55 PM »

I think games just need to decide what they want and do that as well as they can.  It's pointless to say that games should be a certain way in general.  People like their niche and genre titles, and I don't think a game has to cater to everyone to be excellent.

I guess this was kinda obvious to point out.
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Doom

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2009, 09:27:53 PM »

You'd think so but then a guy wrote an article and mentioned that he can't believe a 3D Action-Adventure Fighting Game expects him to actually learn to use it's fighting system.
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Alex

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2009, 09:37:04 PM »

I think games just need to decide what they want and do that as well as they can.  It's pointless to say that games should be a certain way in general.  People like their niche and genre titles, and I don't think a game has to cater to everyone to be excellent.

I guess this was kinda obvious to point out.

But...but when LESS people can play your game, that means it SUCKS!

Or so people like the article writer think? :hurr:

It seems kind of weird for dudes like that to suggest that anything they take interest in must immediately conform to what they perceive to be best despite that something being perfectly fine prior.  Kind of like going to a classy restaurant then lamblasting the chef because burgers chicken fingers hotdogs cheap ramen corned beef hash greasy fast food burgers aren't on the menu and Barley Risotto with Chicken and Parmesan is too hardcore for your taste buds to learn to appreciate.
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Frocto

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2009, 11:41:57 PM »

"I got 10 more combos than before!"

"I'M FIGHTING THE ZOMBIE"
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Mongrel

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2009, 03:36:18 AM »

Unreal Tournament is the case study for this.  The AI programmers spent a lot of time putting in different difficulty levels and behaviors for the AI bots.

The end result is that anybody who played on anything less than Godlike criticized the AI for acting retarded.  Later releases of Unreal Tournament has the bots always follow the same pro-gamer behaviors, but on lesser levels they don't shoot as accurately.  Nobody said a peep.

Wow, really? I played the original UT quite heavily and was very pleasantly surprised by by the quality of the bot AI, especially for the time it was made.
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Zaratustra

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2009, 04:44:55 AM »

Theory: People have different definitions of "fun", which is why they argue endlessly about why something is or isn't fun.

What games in particular provide that other medias don't?

Experience is fun. Finding new things is fun. Traveling to a foreign city is fun. Shadow of the Colossus is fun.

Challenge is fun. Solving problems is fun in and of itself. Puzzles are fun. IWBTG is fun.

Reward is fun. Being told you did a good job is fun. Eating is fun. Getting cool items to equip on your troll is fun.

Now, as you get older, new experiences are harder to find, and challenge just translates to "chore" as problems become mostly something other people put in front of you to get rid of as soon as possible.

Games are getting easier because gamers are getting older. It's that simple.

sei

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2009, 09:03:21 AM »

What he wants is something like casual games, which give a sense of accomplishment without being a challenge.
See: MMOs.  "You put up with what to get that shiny item?  Jesus."

Anyway, casuals can give a sense of accomplishment as you get better and better at them. "I lasted 2 minutes longer this time!" or "I got 10 more combos than before!" and such. The key is giving the player some metric by which they can measure their growth.
But that's hard, so we instead let players measure character growth (levels, gear upgrades, new skills, etc.)
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JDigital

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2009, 06:04:29 AM »

Games are getting easier because gamers are getting older. It's that simple.

I've heard a lot of reasons.

There's market diversification. Some prefer easy games, others difficult. Easy games can appeal to people that hard games don't.

There's the curry house idea. If your spicy food is too hot, some customers won't eat it, but if it's too mild, they'll still be mostly happy. Likewise, if a game is too hard (IWBTG) the player won't finish it unless he's serious (Niku).

There's also the idea that developers really want to show you the new stuff. A lot of budget goes into cinematics, modelling and AI, and they want you to see the late-game content.
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Smiler

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2009, 09:25:41 AM »

So, I started playing Batman, and I beat Bane. What the fuck. The guy who wrote that article really sucks at video games.
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Brentai

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2009, 10:00:19 AM »

The Bane bit is the ultimate bad example that should probably be overlooked.  Fucksakes, that game literally gives you a save point for every four enemies.
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Norondor

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2009, 06:22:03 PM »

I think that porting some of this thinking over to video games would inject a bit of life into what has become a fairly stale creative environment these days.

Haha, this makes me think of Spectromancer. It's basically a card game with some interesting mechanics, but I realized it was completely bullshit when I finally understood that no, you don't get to build your deck. The computer randomly makes your deck from all the cards you have every time you play.

The kicker? The game was designed by Richard Garfield. The dude has no idea what you are talking about, IM.

HEY GUESS WHAT YOU'RE WRONG. this is good because you and the opponent can't have the same cards. of the four basic elements there are 12 cards so you know at the outset what the enemy has with exactly 50% accuracy. This leads to some pretty clever gaming at the early/mid game level as you attempt to keep secret your real big hitters or make use of what you get, and there's literally almost no deck you can randomly get that isn't winnable (particularly since the recent tweaking to Phoenix, Mind Master, Armageddon, and uh some other things)
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Doom

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2009, 03:15:08 PM »

Just popping in after trying out some Arkham Asylum to say that if Arkham Asylum is too hard for you, you may be:

1) retarded
2) a middle aged suburban mother
3) ten years old
4) a cat sitting on the keyboard
5) a dog chewing on the controller
6) a kotaku writer
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Brentai

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Re: Videogames are just too much work!
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2009, 03:49:34 PM »

The stealth bits are kind of challenging if you turn off the Bat-Dayglovision.
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