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[Mongrel]

Whatever number of drinks it takes before it starts affecting other aspects of your life?

Well, I could be putting any leisure time to more productive use. You declared 15 hours as being an amount that constituted "having a problem," so clearly there is more to it than simply having an impact on one's life.

15 hours in reference to a number mentioned in Shinra's post.

I guess if choosing playing WoW (a game I happen to enjoy, and a hobby I happen to enjoy) over going out clubbing on a saturday night or spending money I don't have on dinners and movies I can't afford makes me an addict, call me Sleazy Jim the Hobo because I'll suck your cock for crack.

So WoW (and WoW over and over again, no less) is defaulted to solely because you don't have money?  WoW is literally the only inexpensive activity you are capable of engaging in?

I really don't want to play concern troll over this because I'm well aware I'm throwing stones from glass houses on this but you are like, lifting lines verbatim from the addict playbook here.

Yeah, "I'm broke" is probably not a good defense for a pastime that requires you to pay a monthly subscription fee to stay active.

[Pacobird]

Wait, so are we arguing that spending our time playing videogames is a bad thing now? I thought these boards were mostly about videogames.

But I guess there's no time to waste on such trivial things, nope, we must all just spend our free time learning useful things like "how to play guitar" and "painting" so that we may improve ourselves.

....yes?

[Defenestration]

Anyway, I have a much more relevant question: Most people pursue hobbies because they are "fun" for that person. What in the hell is fun about WoW? I mean, to me it looks like you could get the same results a logging into a chatroom with a bunch of monkeys, where everyone is running Progress Quest. Don't tell me it's "the social aspect", because goddamn it man, there are literally thousands of more interesting things to do to meet and hang out with people both offline and online.

Raiding. I'm not certain how much you understand about MMOs, so forgive me if I patronize you a bit with this explanation, Mongrel.

The basic strategy to kill a boss with a group is to have a tank pick it up and piss it off enough so that it's more angry at the person with tons of hitpoints than the people that deal tons of damage that have less defense that also make it angry. Another group fills up the life when the boss hits the tank.

Of course, it never works out *just* like that. Maybe he'll put a stacking debuff on the tank so that he takes more damage so you have to have more than one tank switch off so they don't die. Maybe he'll shoot fire across the floor so everyone has to watch that they aren't in it, and aren't being split off so they're still useful. Maybe he'll turn one of your friends against you. Maybe he'll also spin around like a maniac and bounce around the room so people have to scatter and avoid him. Maybe he'll summon a bunch of minions that you have to deal with in addition to the big bad.

Of course, realize that these things are happening *all at the same time.* Getting a group of people on the same page when all these crazy things are going on, dealing with all of these obstacles and surmounting them with your friends? That is my draw to this game.

If you're interested in a more specific example that's explained without a lot of WoW lingo, check this video out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEcCItDmIz0

[Pacobird]

you guys are making the argument that since gambling and alcohol ruins lives they should be hated

gambling is basicalliy throwing your money in a deep dark pit and alcohol is basically just a drug that lets you emulate stupidity pretty effectively

I personally don't see a positive to either, but then again I'm the worst person in the world.

Gambling also carries a high social component.

IF someone is trying to make the "WoW is like drugs" comparison, it's probably better to switch that analogy to gambling, since both are sedentary and can easily be enjoyed just for fun in moderation.

I mean, I already posted this earlier. WoW is a hobby like many others. It carries a small risk of addiction but so do many many other things. It doesn't happen very often but it does happen often enough that most of us can think of at least one person who has suffered in this way. And when people see their friends or family addicted to anything they get mad at the source of the addiction, whether or not that's deserved.

  WoW may be a rotten hobby, but it's just a hobby. Addiction is a tragedy that is hard to deal with and harder to watch, regardless of the object of fixation.


Anyway, I have a much more relevant question: Most people pursue hobbies because they are "fun" for that person. What in the hell is fun about WoW? I mean, to me it looks like you could get the same results a logging into a chatroom with a bunch of monkeys, where everyone is running Progress Quest. Don't tell me it's "the social aspect", because goddamn it man, there are literally thousands of more interesting things to do to meet and hang out with people both offline and online.

Actually (and this is purely academic but hey) it's probably closer to sex addiction than anything, because sex, when practiced safely, has none of the physical cost of narcotic abuse and none of the economic cost of gambling.  Nobody lost all their money going out and having sex with strangers purely on its own.

Of course, those people maay lose all their money from all the OTHER problems that come with addiction, which is really what we're talking about here: psychological and opportunity costs.

I remember reading an interview with some psychiatrist who'd done research into ostensible MMO addiction.  His verdict was "well, this subject is clearly addicted to WoW but this other guy may play 12 hours a day but is actually not addicted in any traditional sense of the word, so uhhhhhhh".  Point well taken, but if dude #2 is losing 12 hours a day to WoW of all things does it really matter if he's technically addicted or not?  He's suffering the symptoms.

[patito]

Wait, so are we arguing that spending our time playing videogames is a bad thing now? I thought these boards were mostly about videogames.

But I guess there's no time to waste on such trivial things, nope, we must all just spend our free time learning useful things like "how to play guitar" and "painting" so that we may improve ourselves.

....yes?

Yeah, I guess you're absolutely correct, what am I doing wasting my time reading forums on the internet when I can be doing so much more productive stuff.

GOODBYE TO MY INTERNET FRIENDS FOREVER.

[Pacobird]

Do you feel like there's other things you need to be doing?  Are you reading forums instead of getting a job, for instance?  Are you reading forums instead of getting exercise?  Are you reading forums instead of, I don't know, reading a book at any point in the past year?


Do I need to explain why addiction is bad?

[patito]

Well, no, I'm not doing these things when I have other things to do, I'm just saying that WoW is maybe something people can do on their off time without it having to be an addiction, but shinra is quickly trying to prove my assumption wrong.

[Crouton]

Anyway, I have a much more relevant question: Most people pursue hobbies because they are "fun" for that person. What in the hell is fun about WoW?

/story

[Frocto]

I can help here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46WuKMSmuWU

[Doom]

I personally don't see a positive to either, but then again I'm the worst person in the world.

Oh man can we start a giant debate over whether or not drinking has any positive aspect? I love those.

What in the hell is fun about WoW? I mean, to me it looks like you could get the same results a logging into a chatroom with a bunch of monkeys, where everyone is running Progress Quest.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. The gist is that it's still a video game and technically the best MMORPG ever made. So take any of the reasons a MMO might appeal(did you ever try one and think "this aspect is nice?" WoW probably has it refined to a pleasant science.)

Personally I am a big fan of the raiding stuff in the same way that I'd enjoy sitting down in Devil May Cry or Viewtiful Joe and lighting that mother up on the hardest difficulty. I'm never going to be quite a world firster but I've often remarked that Mimiron's Firefighter is my favorite fight. In English, I was in love with complicated fights that required high situational awareness and the ability to not panic because a thing or two gets wrong. You are fighting a giant gnomish voltron in a room that is rapidly exploding. There is fire spreading everywhere and the mech frequently launches missiles, laser barrages, thermo-nuclear detonations and rings of mines. But it's definitely a paragon of WoW boss fights.

I don't know why Defenestration linked a video of a fight that is in comparison easy enough for a trained monkey to do. In fact, WoW boss videos have a heinous curse of being impossible to watch.

Don't tell me it's "the social aspect", because goddamn it man, there are literally thousands of more interesting things to do to meet and hang out with people both offline and online.

"Your hobby can't possibly be fun because it isn't fun to me?"

It's like Diablo 2 or Borderlands. The social aspect is probably more important than the game proper.

Yeah, "I'm broke" is probably not a good defense for a pastime that requires you to pay a monthly subscription fee to stay active.

WoW is actually pretty cheap compared to a traditional gaming hobby.

Most gamers can't imagine "only" getting a new game every month. That's $50-60 a month, $30-40 if you "just" scratch with a hand-held title.

Even just grabbing the monthly D&D 4th Edition book is $30 a pop.

Heck, how many card game players can only buy 3 packs of $5 cards a month?

And so on. $15(or 2-3 hours minimum wage work) is pretty reasonable when it's the only entertainment spending you make. There's also internet cost and the up-front PC and WoW CD purchases, but WoW can run on ancient, terrible computers and if we math it out WoW will probably win the cheap-o war.

[Bleck]

I personally don't see a positive to either, but then again I'm the worst person in the world.

Oh man can we start a giant debate over whether or not drinking has any positive aspect? I love those.

And the winner of 'Most Threadsplits From One Debate' goes to...

[Pacobird]

sidebar:

The idea of 'wow addiction' is still patently ridiculous to me, because I've only ever met two or three people who you would actually call this an addiction for.

It's a little embarassing to even have to point this out but if you know two or three people you'd describe or could conceivably describe as addicted to WoW, the concept is by definition not ridiculous.

[Defenestration]

I don't know why Defenestration linked a video of a fight that is in comparison easy enough for a trained monkey to do. In fact, WoW boss videos have a heinous curse of being impossible to watch.

Oh, I agree with the latter. And because it showed a variety in one video, it was easy to understand the person speaking without prior knowledge, and I didn't want to spend more than 3 minutes searching for something.

[Burrito Al Pastor]

sidebar:

The idea of 'wow addiction' is still patently ridiculous to me, because I've only ever met two or three people who you would actually call this an addiction for.

It's a little embarassing to even have to point this out but if you know two or three people you'd describe or could conceivably describe as addicted to WoW, the concept is by definition not ridiculous.

Not if he's counting people he's met in wow. A chocolatier is going to meet more people with chocolate addictions, a bartender is going to meet more alcoholics, and an RPGA DM is going to meet more D&D addicts. Doesn't change the overall levels of how common it is as an issue.

[Bleck]

I don't think he was taking issue with how common it was; I think he was taking issue with Shinra essentially saying 'I only know a few people who are addicted to WoW, and as such the idea that people can get addicted to WoW is ridiculous'.

[Ziiro]

I'd argue WoW addiction is a monster all its own that can't really be compared to other addictions. People end up addicted to the game for different reasons; social aspect, loot treadmill, achievements, general progression, etc.

I am guilty of telling friends to leave me alone on raiding nights. Or they'd come over to hang out and I'd be finishing a raid while they are there.

[Pacobird]

I'd argue WoW addiction is a monster all its own that can't really be compared to other addictions. People end up addicted to the game for different reasons; social aspect, loot treadmill, achievements, general progression, etc.

So there's no diversity in the reasons driving substance abuse?

A hobo and a frat boy become alcoholics for exactly the same reasons?

[Ziiro]

So there's no diversity in the reasons driving substance abuse?

A hobo and a frat boy become alcoholics for exactly the same reasons?

Good point. I guess it isn't so different. Fuck.

[Hraedon]

15 hours in reference to a number mentioned in Shinra's post.

Yeah, and your contention was that spending that amount of time on a video game (or any other activity that is insufficiently "productive," apparently) amounts to Doing It Wrong. My question was to try and get you to lay down some helpful benchmarks for other activities, since there is evidently an acceptable threshold beyond which no justifications are valid.
 

So WoW (and WoW over and over again, no less) is defaulted to solely because you don't have money?  WoW is literally the only inexpensive activity you are capable of engaging in?

"Sometimes choosing to forgo other activities for wow" is exactly the same thing as "doing nothing but wow." Unless your argument is a tautological "you can't play wow enough to have a problem without crossing some not at all arbitrary threshold of 'too much'," I am profoundly unmoved.

I really don't want to play concern troll over this because I'm well aware I'm throwing stones from glass houses on this but you are like, lifting lines verbatim from the addict playbook here.

"Throwing stones from glass houses" doesn't begin to describe what you are doing. Concern trolling is one thing, but you're projecting onto anyone who happens to want to spend more than your definition of whatever the correct amount of time is in-game. I'm sure you would have the same concerns over someone who spent 15 hours a week watching TV (SPORTS), though, so it is all good.

bonus quote:

Yeah, "I'm broke" is probably not a good defense for a pastime that requires you to pay a monthly subscription fee to stay active.

A single night of drinking buys two to three months of wow, if you go to a bar
A single month of cable TV costs between three to five months of wow
A (serious) play for two people can easily pay for a year of wow. Hell, even the student plays at the UofA cost $15 a person for the worst seats and with the steepest discount.

Unless you take issue with people spending any amount of money on leisure pursuits if they describe themselves as "broke," yours is another comically insubstantial argument.

[Mongrel]

Re: Money comments

I understand your point about it maybe being a cheap option for a video game gamer, but I gotta say that there is a LOT of stuff you can do for free.

So it's rough and all that someone might find it difficult to purchase games on a monthly basis, or pay MMO subscription fees, but "it's cheap" is still a poor explanation to defend WoW over other forms of social gaming.

More importantly, there's something kind of mildly fucked up about someone being poor enough that the relative costs of gaming become relevant, but not using at least some of the X hours a week they have to game in to perhaps find some extra work. It might not be the way things "should" be, but like it or not, leisure is a luxury.

Unless you take issue with people spending any amount of money on leisure pursuits if they describe themselves as "broke," yours is another comically insubstantial argument.

As you can see, I kinda do. I think this is where concerns about being "more productive" do become relevant.