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[Pacobird]

Ultimately, I'm not arguing that there is no such thing as wow addiction, or that any level of play is acceptable. I just think your definitions of unacceptable levels of time commitment are aggressively narrow, particularly when compared to equally valueless time sinks that are more socially acceptable.

Again, do I need to explain why addiction is bad?

You still haven't explained how this is addiction.

Let me go over addiction.

My father, from the day I was born, until he died two days before christmas last year, was an addict. He cashed in the savings bonds that were supposed to go towards my college education to buy cocaine and heroine. He brought my brother and I to drug deals on the way to school or the way back from restaurants because he couldn't wait long enough to drop us off and go back to his dealer. My parents divorced when I was six, because my father's drug and alcohol induced mood swings were severely violent and unpredictable. He'd often beat my mom in front of my brother and I, and more than once one of them ended up in the hospital because of it. The divorce put my dad into an extremely deep depression - I watched my dad waste away, at a young age, on severe alcohol and drug abuse until he finally overdosed on heroine and went into the hospital.

I watched my dad, nearly dead in a hospital bed, pale as a ghost, shaking and shivering, and I was six years old. Today, it's one of my most vivid memories. For a few years my dad went sober, fell off the wagon, and began drinking and using again around the time I was 16 - I was living with him at the time. During that time he gave up all other pursuits - he requested a layoff at work (he was in tight with management) so he could collect unemployment and spent the remainder of his time sitting on his ass in the living room watching NASCAR and getting drunk.

He experienced mood swings at the time whenever he came down off his drugs but his inhibitions and common sense were fucked off from all the booze he was drinking, so he started to become violent. On five occasions in two months he attacked me, the final of which he wrestled me to the floor, punched me in the face twice and attempted to choke me out. I left my dad's house that day and didn't come back.

Over the next 8 years I talked to my dad a total of about 15 times - I intentionally avoided speaking to him, seeing him, or calling him because his addiction had ruined my childhood - and years later, came back and ruined the relationship I had built with my father. Talking to him was a painful experience, because if he wasn't high, he was going through the shakes and couldn't carry on a conversation. On three occasions he went into rehab because of heroine or cocaine or both.

In late October/Early november I went to michigan to see my mother. At this point, my father called me - in a drug induced, rambling fit, he insulted me, told me I was a horrible dissapointment, and complained at length about how much of a pain in the ass I was when I was living with him. I hung up. The next day he called and half-heartedly apologized to me, before trying to solicit my help with a computer problem. I blew him off and never called him back. That was the last time I spoke with my father.

That is addiction, Paco, and if you knew addiction, you wouldn't be using this fucking word to define a harmless fucking hobby. Addiction is something that RUINS LIVES. And I'm not going to argue that WoW hasn't ruined a few - but there is a huge fucking difference between 'Spending a few hours a day playing a game I enjoy' and 'Giving up everything in my life, including friends, family, and work, to play a game I stopped really enjoying a long time ago'. I have met hundreds of WoW players, and of them, only two I've ever considered addicted.

One of them happens to be my own father in law - who quit his job, got diabetes, became obese, and is now developing bed sores because of his addiction. The game is fucking misery to him, but he won't try to do anything else - part of them is because of a severe disability he has had since he was a child, but he won't even try another game. He has to play WoW. Between the game and his medication he is consistently in a foul mood. His life consists of getting up, playing wow until he has too severe a headache to do so anymore, and then either going to bed or watching TV for a few hours - WoW consists of literally 90% of all of his free time. Why, when he is so miserable, does he devote so much time to WoW? BECAUSE AN ADDICT WILL FOREGO EVERYTHING ELSE TO ENGAGE IN THEIR ADDICTION. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MINOR ADDICT.

An addict will do something without any concern for their own health or safety, or the health or safety of others, and eschew everything in favor of that addiction whenever possible. This is the danger of getting addicted to WoW, because it is so cheap and accessible, an inordinate amount of time can be spent pursuing this addiction. One of my former GM's best friends died because of MMO addiction - they got diabetes from their sedentary lifestyle and eating habits, were obese, got a sore on their leg from not moving enough, the sore became gangrenous, they lost their leg, the healing let got infected, the infection spread and they died.

THIS is the problem I have with you guys throwing around the word addiction. You don't know what it fucking means, and it's fucking offensive to those of us who HAVE had our lives affected by a real addict. There is a huge difference between casual use and problem use of anything - be it illicit substances or escapism. You guys are consistently confusing differences in prioritization between two persons with addiction, and it has to fucking stop.



Edit:   summary? If a WoW player is only engaging in WoW 20% of their free time (15 hours) then they're not a fucking addict by any stretch of the imagination.

So, you're saying addictive behaviors run in your family?

I'm not posting this for my fucking health.  Addiction can ruin your life long before it turns you into a psychopath.  If you really don't think there's a better way for you to spend your time than WoW, fine, but the next time you post shit like this I am going to shove a copy of The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People so far up your ass you will be shitting uplifting quotes from Fortune 500 CEOs for months.

One of them happens to be my own father in law - who quit his job, got diabetes, became obese, and is now developing bed sores because of his addiction. The game is fucking misery to him, but he won't try to do anything else - part of them is because of a severe disability he has had since he was a child, but he won't even try another game. He has to play WoW. Between the game and his medication he is consistently in a foul mood. His life consists of getting up, playing wow until he has too severe a headache to do so anymore, and then either going to bed or watching TV for a few hours - WoW consists of literally 90% of all of his free time. Why, when he is so miserable, does he devote so much time to WoW?

Because he no longer has the ability to do anything else.  Do you seriously believe it was always this way?  That he was simply born to die?

[Detonator]

I think people are just pissed because listening to people talk about WoW football politics etc shit I don't like is the most boring thing on Earth.

zzz

 

Nope.  WoW is much much worse.

Thanks for rendering an objective verdict for us. I'm sure your bullshit contention is not at all colored by your personal views!

I'm not even trying to shit on WoW itself.  I played it for a while and can see why people like it.  However, listening to people talk about WoW, is, objectively, the most boring thing on Earth.

[Shinra]

Ultimately, I'm not arguing that there is no such thing as wow addiction, or that any level of play is acceptable. I just think your definitions of unacceptable levels of time commitment are aggressively narrow, particularly when compared to equally valueless time sinks that are more socially acceptable.

Again, do I need to explain why addiction is bad?

You still haven't explained how this is addiction.

Let me go over addiction.

My father, from the day I was born, until he died two days before christmas last year, was an addict. He cashed in the savings bonds that were supposed to go towards my college education to buy cocaine and heroine. He brought my brother and I to drug deals on the way to school or the way back from restaurants because he couldn't wait long enough to drop us off and go back to his dealer. My parents divorced when I was six, because my father's drug and alcohol induced mood swings were severely violent and unpredictable. He'd often beat my mom in front of my brother and I, and more than once one of them ended up in the hospital because of it. The divorce put my dad into an extremely deep depression - I watched my dad waste away, at a young age, on severe alcohol and drug abuse until he finally overdosed on heroine and went into the hospital.

I watched my dad, nearly dead in a hospital bed, pale as a ghost, shaking and shivering, and I was six years old. Today, it's one of my most vivid memories. For a few years my dad went sober, fell off the wagon, and began drinking and using again around the time I was 16 - I was living with him at the time. During that time he gave up all other pursuits - he requested a layoff at work (he was in tight with management) so he could collect unemployment and spent the remainder of his time sitting on his ass in the living room watching NASCAR and getting drunk.

He experienced mood swings at the time whenever he came down off his drugs but his inhibitions and common sense were fucked off from all the booze he was drinking, so he started to become violent. On five occasions in two months he attacked me, the final of which he wrestled me to the floor, punched me in the face twice and attempted to choke me out. I left my dad's house that day and didn't come back.

Over the next 8 years I talked to my dad a total of about 15 times - I intentionally avoided speaking to him, seeing him, or calling him because his addiction had ruined my childhood - and years later, came back and ruined the relationship I had built with my father. Talking to him was a painful experience, because if he wasn't high, he was going through the shakes and couldn't carry on a conversation. On three occasions he went into rehab because of heroine or cocaine or both.

In late October/Early november I went to michigan to see my mother. At this point, my father called me - in a drug induced, rambling fit, he insulted me, told me I was a horrible dissapointment, and complained at length about how much of a pain in the ass I was when I was living with him. I hung up. The next day he called and half-heartedly apologized to me, before trying to solicit my help with a computer problem. I blew him off and never called him back. That was the last time I spoke with my father.

That is addiction, Paco, and if you knew addiction, you wouldn't be using this fucking word to define a harmless fucking hobby. Addiction is something that RUINS LIVES. And I'm not going to argue that WoW hasn't ruined a few - but there is a huge fucking difference between 'Spending a few hours a day playing a game I enjoy' and 'Giving up everything in my life, including friends, family, and work, to play a game I stopped really enjoying a long time ago'. I have met hundreds of WoW players, and of them, only two I've ever considered addicted.

One of them happens to be my own father in law - who quit his job, got diabetes, became obese, and is now developing bed sores because of his addiction. The game is fucking misery to him, but he won't try to do anything else - part of them is because of a severe disability he has had since he was a child, but he won't even try another game. He has to play WoW. Between the game and his medication he is consistently in a foul mood. His life consists of getting up, playing wow until he has too severe a headache to do so anymore, and then either going to bed or watching TV for a few hours - WoW consists of literally 90% of all of his free time. Why, when he is so miserable, does he devote so much time to WoW? BECAUSE AN ADDICT WILL FOREGO EVERYTHING ELSE TO ENGAGE IN THEIR ADDICTION. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MINOR ADDICT.

An addict will do something without any concern for their own health or safety, or the health or safety of others, and eschew everything in favor of that addiction whenever possible. This is the danger of getting addicted to WoW, because it is so cheap and accessible, an inordinate amount of time can be spent pursuing this addiction. One of my former GM's best friends died because of MMO addiction - they got diabetes from their sedentary lifestyle and eating habits, were obese, got a sore on their leg from not moving enough, the sore became gangrenous, they lost their leg, the healing let got infected, the infection spread and they died.

THIS is the problem I have with you guys throwing around the word addiction. You don't know what it fucking means, and it's fucking offensive to those of us who HAVE had our lives affected by a real addict. There is a huge difference between casual use and problem use of anything - be it illicit substances or escapism. You guys are consistently confusing differences in prioritization between two persons with addiction, and it has to fucking stop.



Edit:  summary? If a WoW player is only engaging in WoW 20% of their free time (15 hours) then they're not a fucking addict by any stretch of the imagination.

So, you're saying addictive behaviors run in your family?

I'm not posting this for my fucking health.  Addiction can ruin your life long before it turns you into a psychopath.  If you really don't think there's a better way for you to spend your time than WoW, fine, but the next time you post shit like this I am going to shove a copy of The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People so far up your ass you will be shitting uplifting quotes from Fortune 500 CEOs for months.

One of them happens to be my own father in law - who quit his job, got diabetes, became obese, and is now developing bed sores because of his addiction. The game is fucking misery to him, but he won't try to do anything else - part of them is because of a severe disability he has had since he was a child, but he won't even try another game. He has to play WoW. Between the game and his medication he is consistently in a foul mood. His life consists of getting up, playing wow until he has too severe a headache to do so anymore, and then either going to bed or watching TV for a few hours - WoW consists of literally 90% of all of his free time. Why, when he is so miserable, does he devote so much time to WoW?

Because he no longer has the ability to do anything else.  Do you seriously believe it was always this way?  That he was simply born to die?

The 15 hours a week number I quoted was an average maximum and at the time I wasn't playing WoW anymore. I have since found a job.

Get fucked, Paco. I'm not going to involve myself in this conversation anymore, because you have such a (newfound, I might add) hate-on for this game you're perverting what addiction is and means. It's insulting for those of us who actually have been affected by addiction in our lives, and shows a remarkable lack of sensitivity on your part, but what else could I expect from you?

[norn]

Cool thread. Lots of really engaging, interesting arguments from all involved. I think my favorite part was when anyone knew what the topic for discussion was, beyond 'Baby's First Sociological Analysis'. I'd like to politely request it be moved to Guild Hall, so that when I see new posts are in the WoW subboard, I can be reasonably sure that they will be about World of Warcraft, the game, rather than:

1) Paco's thoroughly wearying, somewhat disingenuous attempts to save the people on this forum now that he has a proper, socially acceptable lifestyle. I know you know that trying to be someone's internet dad isn't going to effect any positive change. It was funny in the thread where you trolled the daylights out of IM, but it's a lot harder to swallow in this thread, given the supposed subject matter.

2) Despondent people who want their friends to behave one way, but they're behaving another and it's all WoW's fault. Yeah, World of Warcraft does have qualities that make it more addictive wait this word is loaded what's another good one uhtime-consuming than other games, but your problem here is with your friends. Who are their own agents. And won't act the way you want them to all the time. Like every other person in the world. Maybe you can't be friends because of the ways in which they spend their time. Maybe you should share your concerns with them instead of making a stupid thread.

3) People who haven't played World of Warcraft since 2004, or possibly ever, wondering why we all don't just run mIRC with a Boris Vallejo image tiled in the background because the game is just so bad. The answer is coming up, and I hope you're ready to have your mind fucking blown. Are you ready?

People enjoy different things. Sometimes these things won't be things that you find worthwhile. But they actually do enjoy them.

Yeah. Stunning stuff. If you're just reading this for the first time, I suggest staying in your chair for a moment and letting the vertigo pass. I also suggest not making a post on a video game forum that is the direct equivalent of 'why do the kids like the rap music'.

4) Some really, really bad trolling. Like... terrible. Just terrible.


Please, redirect this crap where it belongs.

[Pacobird]

Again: 10 hours of work a day including commute and lunch + 7 hours of sleep = 7 hours of free time a day per weekday if you have a fulltime job.  You must also run errands, and I will be extremely generous and say 1 hour of that free time will cover breakfast, dinner, and waking up and getting ready for bed. How does devoting 15 hours a week out of those 30 remaining hours in the weekday not constitute a substantial investment of your life?

I do not have a hate-on for WoW.  I like WoW, and the cost/benefit analysis behind the game's entertainment value is totally unassailable.  I am simply trying to approach this objectively.  If I, as an uninitiated observer, were to hear from someone that he devoted literally one half of his free time during the week to one activity, can you explain to me why I should interpret that as anything other than a significant life choice?


Actually, norn, you of all people should know I'm not really being disingenuous here.  I recall us talking somewhat recently, and you'd observed I hadn't been playing nearly as much, and was I getting tired of WoW?  I said I wasn't, and in fact most days I'd like to play quite a bit more than I do (which I admit is still not an insignificant amount), but I don't because I could not be assured that I would always feel that way.

[Mongrel]

Shinra, I'm not going to get a fight with you, but - without going into details - I just want you to know that you are not the only person who has to deal with that kind of shit. You are not the only person who has to watch people destroy their life and the lives of everyone around them through strong addictions and mental failures. Some of us have lived through similar things (I will not say 'better' or 'worse' - I'm not going to engage in one-upsmanship). All I have to say is get off your high fucking horse, because some people have lived through the same things and have come to very different conclusions.

It's nothing but a fucking goddamned miserable tragedy, not some kind of [redacted].

3) People who haven't played World of Warcraft since 2004, or possibly ever, wondering why we all don't just run mIRC with a Boris Vallejo image tiled in the background because the game is just so bad. The answer is coming up, and I hope you're ready to have your mind fucking blown. Are you ready?

People enjoy different things. Sometimes these things won't be things that you find worthwhile. But they actually do enjoy them.

Yeah. Stunning stuff. If you're just reading this for the first time, I suggest staying in your chair for a moment and letting the vertigo pass. I also suggest not making a post on a video game forum that is the direct equivalent of 'why do the kids like the rap music'.

Yes people have different tastes and being excessively picky about someone else's hobby is stupid, but applying some kind of bizarro cultural relativism is just as dumb. Just because it's a hobby, doesn't mean no criticism of it can ever be raised.

[Romosome]

I think people are just pissed because listening to people talk about WoW football politics etc shit I don't like is the most boring thing on Earth.

zzz

 

Nope.  WoW is much much worse.

Thanks for rendering an objective verdict for us. I'm sure your bullshit contention is not at all colored by your personal views!

I'm not even trying to shit on WoW itself.  I played it for a while and can see why people like it.  However, listening to people talk about WoW, is, objectively, the most boring thing on Earth.

You've never heard someone talk about professional sports, then.

(yes, I only posted here to make fun of american football)

[Detonator]

You've never heard someone talk about professional sports, then.

(yes, I only posted here to make fun of american football)

You see, the problem there is that I like sportz and I don't CARE who knows.

[Mongrel]

As usual, Kate Beaton has already bested anything we could come up with:

[Shinra]

Shinra, I'm not going to get a fight with you, but - without going into details - I just want you to know that you are not the only person who has to deal with that kind of shit. You are not the only person who has to watch people destroy their life and the lives of everyone around them through strong addictions and mental failures. Some of us have lived through similar things (I will not say 'better' or 'worse' - I'm not going to engage in one-upsmanship). All I have to say is get off your high fucking horse, because some people have lived through the same things and have come to very different conclusions.

It's nothing but a fucking goddamned miserable tragedy, not some kind of [redacted].

orly? because if you took addiction seriously you wouldn't be classifying every hobby you don't seem to enjoy as dangerous addiction.

Seriously, go fuck broken glass.

[Pacobird]

Man, listening to you you'd think we thought the hobby itself and not the behaviors and attitudes toward it was the bad part.

That would be a pretty silly thing to think, wouldn't it!

[Niku]

for fuck's sake you guys.

[Pacobird]

Confession: my job is way more boring than either WoW or yelling at internet people.

[Mongrel]

Shinra, I'm not going to get a fight with you, but - without going into details - I just want you to know that you are not the only person who has to deal with that kind of shit. You are not the only person who has to watch people destroy their life and the lives of everyone around them through strong addictions and mental failures. Some of us have lived through similar things (I will not say 'better' or 'worse' - I'm not going to engage in one-upsmanship). All I have to say is get off your high fucking horse, because some people have lived through the same things and have come to very different conclusions.

It's nothing but a fucking goddamned miserable tragedy, not some kind of [redacted].

orly? because if you took addiction seriously you wouldn't be classifying every hobby you don't seem to enjoy as dangerous addiction.

Seriously, go fuck broken glass.

If you could fucking read you'd know I'd already said WoW is not an addiction. In this thread. Several times.

Confession: my job is way more boring than either WoW or yelling at internet people.

 

Why do you think I post here all day?

[sei]

You love hearing yourself talk almost as much as you love subjecting the unwilling to same?

[Bongo Bill]

As long as we're having an awful, borderline-trolling thread, I think I'll throw my hat in the ring. Understand that I say this out of pure prejudice, and I'm posting it here because it would be too ill-informed and rude to post anywhere else. Why don't I just not say it? Good fucking question.

I've been convinced that WoW has interesting enough gameplay that I can relate to it, somewhere. What I don't get is what drives our hypothetical addict to become addicted to that crunchy center when the chocolate surrounding it is scores of levels of the same few basic quests, and the best anyone can say about it is that it goes by three times faster now than it did five years ago. (Rumor has it the next expansion takes out all the Kill Ten Wolves busywork and replaces it with, I dunno, candy?) I'm no stranger to the concept of enjoying RPG gameplay, but pre-endgame MMO monotony really is something else. Where's the rush that compels a person to seek more of it? Where's the relief that you soon can't get through a working day without? You've practically got to be an addict in order to not give up before you get to what's supposed to be the addicting part!

[Mongrel]

You love hearing yourself talk almost as much as you love subjecting the unwilling to same?

 

As long as we're having an awful, borderline-trolling thread, I think I'll throw my hat in the ring. Understand that I say this out of pure prejudice, and I'm posting it here because it would be too ill-informed and rude to post anywhere else. Why don't I just not say it? Good fucking question.

I've been convinced that WoW has interesting enough gameplay that I can relate to it, somewhere. What I don't get is what drives our hypothetical addict to become addicted to that crunchy center when the chocolate surrounding it is scores of levels of the same few basic quests, and the best anyone can say about it is that it goes by three times faster now than it did five years ago. (Rumor has it the next expansion takes out all the Kill Ten Wolves busywork and replaces it with, I dunno, candy?) I'm no stranger to the concept of enjoying RPG gameplay, but pre-endgame MMO monotony really is something else. Where's the rush that compels a person to seek more of it? Where's the relief that you soon can't get through a working day without? You've practically got to be an addict in order to not give up before you get to what's supposed to be the addicting part!

Don't ask me, I think that stuff's as boring as dirt.

[Shinra]

What's nice about World of Warcraft is that you can log in, play two hours, log out, pick it up again the next day and the next day and the next day; simply put, it requires very little investment on the part of the player and provides you with constant reward in the form of progress. You have to have a certain love of repetitive tasks to begin with to enjoy the game - MMOs aren't for everyone and WoW is no exception.

[Pacobird]

What's nice about World of Warcraft is that you can log in, play two hours, log out, pick it up again the next day and the next day and the next day;

 

That's all I'm saying.  Seriously. 




Seriously.

[Shinra]

What's nice about World of Warcraft is that you can log in, play two hours, log out, pick it up again the next day and the next day and the next day;

 

That's all I'm saying.  Seriously. 




Seriously.

What's your point? Seriously? Because we have the option to pick it up and play it daily it somehow makes it an addiction?

addict
One entry found.

Main Entry: 1ad·dict
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈdikt\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Latin addictus, past participle of addicere to favor, from ad- + dicere to say — more at diction
Date: 1534

1 : to devote or surrender (oneself) to something habitually or obsessively <addicted to gambling>
2 : to cause addiction to a substance in (a person or animal)

addiction
One entry found.

Main Entry: ad·dic·tion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈdik-shən, a-\
Function: noun
Date: 1599

1 : the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
2 : compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful

compulsion
One entry found.

Main Entry: com·pul·sion
Pronunciation: \kəm-ˈpəl-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Late Latin; Anglo-French, from Late Latin compulsion-, compulsio, from Latin compellere to compel
Date: 15th century

1 a : an act of compelling : the state of being compelled b : a force that compels
2 : an irresistible persistent impulse to perform an act (as excessive hand washing); also : the act itself

I don't have an irresistable persistent impulse to log into WoW and play it. I make the choice to log in and play WoW because I consider it preferable to other methods of entertainment. I do not suffer psychological anxiety when I do not play WoW, and I often go days, weeks, months at a time without playing or logging into WoW.

You do not understand what addiction is - you are basing a lot of this off the findings of Alcoholics Anonymous, which has been controversial for years as being a faith based organization that uses addiction treatment as a means of conversion into born-again Christianity. "doing something regularly" and "Doing something compulsively" are two wildly different things, and you cheapen the experiences of those who have had to deal with or experienced real addiction when you use the term so freely.