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[Doom]

The era of catering to the hardcore is gradually dead, if not already. Hardmode Icecream Citadel became available this weak. So Vodka played for 15 hours straight, killed everything without limited attempts, and probably logged to their alts to go scout the situation. Icecream Citadel had it's gated thing, non-hardcores presumably had time to go there, and then they just let the big kids do their thing. Who cares if they finish it this week and they're bored? The hardcore will come back for that Cataclysm hit. Somebody has to world first Ragnaros X.

I think they need to axe the better loot!!!!! and just leave hard-core stuff to strict e-peen. Mimiron's Head. Tribe to Insanity. Ugly Model Flying Horse. Feats of Strength. But no more loot tiers. I think Grand Crusader opened an ugly wound and hope to see it gone in Cataclysm.

Maybe just axe 25 man content entirely. What's the point? Sincere question, by the way. What's the point of 25 man content if the ilevels are 12 levels higher than the 10 man equivalent? What's the difference between a guild fielding two 10 mans vs one 25 man? Would you rather have two unique 10 man raids or go through the same Elemental Plateau raid twice? Or just once, forcing yourself to tolerate less than optimal conditions(25 man raiding) because your one shot a week has to be at the higher ilevels.

[Rico]

Oh, I had forgot about that.  The limited attempts mechanic is "forcing" literal addicts or literal professionals to run mirror alt raids to maintain temporal penis standing.

25-man raiding does serve a purpose in that coordinating two legitimate 10s is way harder than one 25 and most "small" guilds probably have about 15 good people in them so it's kind of a dick move to kick five.  That said, I would prefer 20-man, because as I've been saying since TBC, running Two Point Five Karazhan raids to attune people to SSC was fucking retarded and for fuck's sake Blizzard is arithmetic so hard?

I have always complained loudly about the forced and unnecessary divide between 10 and 25-man rewards, though at least Blizzard has compensated pretty well (if in the wrong direction) by better tuning both tiers of content.

[Doom]

20 man stuff would be a step up, but again I must ask what sort of appeal exists to 25 mans?

Better loot?

It's harder to lead 25 monkeys through a flaming hoop than 10?

It just seems to be a commonly held standard that 10 mans are "tighter" because every member is expected to perform, and 25 mans have comedy about how any given 5-10 members of the raid are just quietly riding the coattails of their superiors, any DPS they contribute being entirely incidental. If this is true, would we put up with the 25 man at all if the carrots weren't bigger?

I guess it gives more to do.

[Shinra]

20 man stuff would be a step up, but again I must ask what sort of appeal exists to 25 mans?

Better loot?

It's harder to lead 25 monkeys through a flaming hoop than 10?

It just seems to be a commonly held standard that 10 mans are "tighter" because every member is expected to perform, and 25 mans have comedy about how any given 5-10 members of the raid are just quietly riding the coattails of their superiors, any DPS they contribute being entirely incidental. If this is true, would we put up with the 25 man at all if the carrots weren't bigger?

I guess it gives more to do.

10 man content has been substantially easier than 25 since Ulduar.

Oh, I had forgot about that.  The limited attempts mechanic is "forcing" literal addicts or literal professionals to run mirror alt raids to maintain temporal penis standing.

25-man raiding does serve a purpose in that coordinating two legitimate 10s is way harder than one 25 and most "small" guilds probably have about 15 good people in them so it's kind of a dick move to kick five.  That said, I would prefer 20-man, because as I've been saying since TBC, running Two Point Five Karazhan raids to attune people to SSC was fucking retarded and for fuck's sake Blizzard is arithmetic so hard?

I have always complained loudly about the forced and unnecessary divide between 10 and 25-man rewards, though at least Blizzard has compensated pretty well (if in the wrong direction) by better tuning both tiers of content.

Now, this I agree with. 20 man raids makes so much more sense than 25, and it's not like they couldn't just scale boss hp down by another 10% to compensate for the fewer DPS you're bringing.

[Doom]

10 man content has been substantially easier than 25 since Ulduar.

So why does the joke exist?  What makes the 25 man stuff harder than more numbers? If they removed the 25 man stuff, why couldn't they just tune the 10 man stuff a bit better?

Hell, it's said that the 10 man stuff is better tuned and that some of the 25 man stuff is just thrown out there without testing.

What if raiding was just 10 man and 10 man heroic? If you want harder, you toggle a switch. You don't go recruit 15 people, half of whom are typically resented.

The big points coming to my mind are that..

1) If we only do ten man stuff, we can't assume that every raid has every buff. Fights will be more about execution and interesting mechanics than highest feasible DPS based on raid comp. But they already have to make sure 25 man stuff can be beaten without demanding EVERY buff...

2) The 25 man stuff has the illusion of being both harder and easier because more people is more raid synergy, even if accidental.

I guess I'd rather have two ten man raids full of Mimiron fights than a single raid that has a 10 man and a 25 man version of Lord Skullfucker. On 25 man difficulty, Lord Skullfucker hits just hard enough to justify having twice as many healers spamming their most powerful heal on the MT. But that's getting into the separate issue of the need to redefine healers, which hopefully Cataclysm will accomplish.

[Shinra]

as far as individual advancement and representation of ability goes, 25 man gives good players more opportunity to shine. Having the guaranteed availability of buffs gives you more gear options and a better chance at seeing what your build and gear choices amount to. Some people that's not a big deal for, but when I was playing my DK, knowing that I was playing and building my spec and character to it's maximum potential and having the combat logs to prove it was immensely satisfying. Aside from that, there are serious long term balance issues in changing to ten man raids, and there are only two real outcomes - complete homogenization of every class, or a return to the classic days of hybrid = healer or tank and dps = rogue, hunter, warlock, mage. In a ten man raid, a support DPS cannot make up the difference between himself and a primary DPS through buffs. This basically kills moonkin, enhancement shaman, etc. Ten man raid content is intentionally balanced to be easy and casual now (even the hard modes, for the most part) but if it was the only mode of advancement, they'd have to tighten up the encounters - hybrids would be lost in the process.

[Doom]

I think you're under-selling the current state of hybrids a bit, but point taken. I'd at least take a swat down to 20 man. 10 + 10 = 20, not 25, damnit.

[Rico]

In a ten man raid, a support DPS cannot make up the difference between himself and a primary DPS through buffs. This basically kills moonkin, enhancement shaman, etc.

This is definitely one of those "all other things being equal" bits, and could also be fixed by tightening buff scaling a bit, in that rogues/wars/dks/pals are largely self-sufficient while hunts/mages/etc. drop much further without a full comp.  Inequitable hybrid taxes are also pretty lolsy.  If only enough loot dropped to reasonably support a full plate raid....

I do kind of like the current 10v.25 system--and Shinra is right about the average relative difficulty--in that almost every fight which is easier on 10 is because of 15 fewer bodies in the room gives you a larger spatial margin of error, which also compensates for the greater relative raid loss of one death in a 10. It feels very sensible to me and really requires 0 extra effort for Blizzard.

[Pacobird]

Out of way more fairness than the concept deserves, a lot of these guys ARE professionals in the way Fatal!ty was a professional; they are in some way getting paid to play.  Of course, that's kind of like saying it's okay to smoke meth as long as you're recouping the cost by dealing it on the side, but we already have a thread for that.