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[TA]

I never said consumers don't have rights. You have a right not to purchase something you see as harmful to something else you purchased. That's your right as a consumer.

I think you call that a strawman. 

Don't want to threadjack this into another libertarian circus of bullshit, but ... seriously?  Are you saying that Valve can and should do whatever the hell they want without limit, because you could always just not buy their products?

[Kazz]

I dislike the term "malware."  There isn't a "benware."

[Guild]

Is Valve able to put spyware on my computer without my dollar going into the company's pocket?

You also have the right not to have malware deliberately installed on your computer without your consent, whether it comes with a product you chose to purchase or not.

SecuROM is not mentioned in the EULA, and even if it were, EULA's are unconscionable contracts that would likely not hold up to a legal challenge.

The Sony rootkit controversy is the best past example of this behavior.  It was settled out of court, but do you think Sony would have won if it had proceeded

You're telling me this malware can install itself on my computer if I never buy the product?

[Guild]

I dislike the term "malware."  There isn't a "benware."

There's also no word for a benevolent virus (the creature). This is PC bullcrap (did you see what I did there).

[Kazz]

you know those worms that made Fry perfect

my computer has those

[Bongo Bill]

I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself whether I'd like to pay money for an indefinite, non-transferable rental with a big heavy electronic padlock on it. Maybe I'd decide that's something that I am fine with paying for. It depends what you're "selling" and for how much. If the system used to enforce the terms of the transaction will cause damage to my system, then, ethically, this should be unambiguously disclosed before any money changes hand.

Similarly, I don't see a problem with charging people five bucks for a punch in the face, as long as they know they're going to be punched in the face. If you don't tell them, that's assault and possibly fraud.

The thing that bugs me most about this scenario is that I've had to go through third parties to even find rumors about what SecuROM will do to a computer. EA isn't telling us and Sony isn't telling us either. You can't make an informed decision about what to spend your money on if you aren't informed.

Edit: the other thing that bugs me about this scenario is that people always spell it "SecureROM." It is not spelled that way. It is "SecuROM."

[Royal☭]

I totally remember when I went out and bought "BIOSHOCK + SECUROM".  That was totally awesome.  Plus the multiple references to rootkits on the box, manual, and installation screen.  Because when I buy video games, I want the company to secretly ram harmful programs through backdoors in my system and potentially break my computer.

[Kazz]

I've probably installed like 4 different games with SecuROM and I've never had an issue.  I'd never know it existed if you guys didn't cry about it so much.

[Bongo Bill]

I've never installed a single game with the stuff, and given the horror stories I hear, I want somebody else to be the guinea pig.

[Kazz]

AFAIK the worst thing it does is introduce a vulnerability.

[Bongo Bill]

I've heard things like: fucking up various peripherals permanently, and also refusing to boot your game if you have something that looks like it maybe might be something designed to possibly someday get around SecuROM.

[Kazz]

I will worry about SecuROM when it harms my computer.  If I avoided everything that could get into my computer and fuck it over, I wouldn't be on the internet.

[A²]

SecuROM in particular is poorly implemented. I'm conducting further research, but so far what I've found is this:

• It installs a shell extension which, among other things, prevents you from deleting 16-bit executables.
• If you want to play the game on a non-Administrator account, it installs a program which is always running, to monitor your usage.
• If it detects a program that could theoretically be used to bypass or spy on SecuROM itself, it will fail to run. Apparently, benign programs like (older versions of) Process Explorer, as well as programming utilities such as debuggers, trigger false positives, either if they have been run since your last boot or if they exist on your computer at all (I'm not sure which).
• It responds similarly to virtual disc drives. Since virtual disc drives are impossible to distinguish from normal drives on a certain type of connection, there is an astronomically high false positive rate.
• It also doesn't run if it thinks it's in a virtual machine.
• It mucks up your registry in a manner that could be used to hide a rootkit, though it is unknown whether a rootkit exists.
• If you upgrade (apparently) any part of your computer, it thinks that you've installed it on a new computer.
• All of the above remains on your computer even after you remove the game.

These things are apparently universal to any software that uses SecuROM, regardless of the specific enforcement scheme.

Someone who's more fluent in computerspeak translate that down for Kazz.

[Kayma]

Holy shit. That's frightening. I have de Bioshock installed on my compy, but I haven't had any issues with peripherals failing or virtual disks shitting the bed. All the same, I'm not too happy.


Definitely don't feel bad about installing that no-disk crack now.

[Detonator]

Is Valve able to put spyware on my computer without my dollar going into the company's pocket?

You also have the right not to have malware deliberately installed on your computer without your consent, whether it comes with a product you chose to purchase or not.

SecuROM is not mentioned in the EULA, and even if it were, EULA's are unconscionable contracts that would likely not hold up to a legal challenge.

The Sony rootkit controversy is the best past example of this behavior.  It was settled out of court, but do you think Sony would have won if it had proceeded

You're telling me this malware can install itself on my computer if I never buy the product?

You missed Thad's middle sentence.  SecuROM is not mentioned on the product.  Is Joe Consumer going to know about it if he doesn't read 1up or Amazon reviews?  Probably not.  The Sony rootkit was even worse: the consumer didn't know until after the products had been sold.  If companies were upfront with the existence and effects of their DRM (mind you that gamers did the research about SecuROM's effects, not EA), I would agree with you.

[Kazz]

Lyrai: I've seen that list before.  Half of those things don't apply to me and the other half I don't care about.  "The program will fail to run" does not qualify as system damage.

[Brentai]

Thrill as Kazz angrily defends his unrecommended purchasing decisions once again!

He's got a point, though.  If you know what the hell you're actually buying, and don't mind all the gambooya it's giving you, then you have every right as a buyer to (NOTE: I say this as a user of Windows Vista.)  Thad and Detonator apparently haven't repeated the main issue enough, however: 99% of the people buying this game don't know what the hell their Kool-Aid is spiked with.  It's illegal when Zango does it without warning, and it's illegal when EA does it without warning too.

For my part, if Spore had managed to keep my attention long enough to launch and not had such mixed reactions, I very well might have risked SecuROM opening another hole in my swiss-cheese of a security setup (I do not keep anything important on this computer.)

[Guild]

Is Valve able to put spyware on my computer without my dollar going into the company's pocket?

You also have the right not to have malware deliberately installed on your computer without your consent, whether it comes with a product you chose to purchase or not.

SecuROM is not mentioned in the EULA, and even if it were, EULA's are unconscionable contracts that would likely not hold up to a legal challenge.

The Sony rootkit controversy is the best past example of this behavior.  It was settled out of court, but do you think Sony would have won if it had proceeded

You're telling me this malware can install itself on my computer if I never buy the product?

You missed Thad's middle sentence.  SecuROM is not mentioned on the product.  Is Joe Consumer going to know about it if he doesn't read 1up or Amazon reviews?  Probably not.  The Sony rootkit was even worse: the consumer didn't know until after the products had been sold.  If companies were upfront with the existence and effects of their DRM (mind you that gamers did the research about SecuROM's effects, not EA), I would agree with you.

I concede that foods should have nutritional facts. There is a point at which it becomes ridiculous, as in the case of "Don't shove these carrots into your nose. Don't eat nothing but carrots for nine weeks straight. Yadda yadda, bla bla bla." but it doesn't sound like this is such a case.

For the record I also think that the FDA should require the DOCTOR PRESCRIBING THE DRUG to tell you what the potential side-effects are rather than grossing me out with anal leakage warnings every time a new nasal spray comes out. <-neither here nor there

[Brentai]

but it doesn't sound like this is such a case.

DING DING DING

[Zaratustra]

Question: Is it possible to install Spore from a torrent sans SecuROM then log in with my account if I purchased Spore legally?