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[Mongrel]

You're trying to find the optimal price point, not assess of much your game is abstractly worth on a value of goodness.

This is probably the most relevant comment in the thread.

[JDigital]

But abstract goodiness is how the customer measures value, which determines number of sales, and number of sales determines optimal price point.

[James Edward Smith]

Kazz, I really liked that cheese burger comparison you sent me over G-talk. I think you should have just posted that, then people would have agreed with you because everyone likes cheeseburgers. Hell, I could go for one right now.

But no, instead you had to go and pick Kraken and then go to bottom lane and stink it all up with your smelliness. How's that gamefaq going, btw?

[Lobst]

I'll probably end up spending $15 for VVVVVV at some point, but to be honest, ever since I quit my job the prospect of paying $15 for a three-hour platformer has grown a lot less palatable to me!  I've heard indie game pricing described as the choice between selling 1000 copies at $10 versus 2000 copies at $5.  If I'd been in charge of Terry Cavanaugh Inc. the day VVVVVV had been priced, I'd have put it at anywhere between $4 and $10, if only to avoid the shitstorm that's followed.  $4 in particular would have transformed the discussion entirely: "Oh shit, it's less than five bucks!  Did you get it?  It's a work of art!"  "C'mon, man, it costs as much as a bag of Doritos, and the tears you'll cry after this will be of joy!"  "I'm playing VVVVVV right now... and loving it!"  "DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!" "pfeh, what a piece of pretentious, overpriced garbage -- windosill is where it's at"

I don't think people should be disparaging it for having been programmed in Flash, though!  Programming in Flash is harder than animating in Flash, and my impression is it's certainly more difficult than a few other object-oriented languages.  The end result can be integrated into a browser, but that's not necessarily where today's game player expects to put a big chunk of time!  For example, I'd have had trouble beating Star Guard if I'd experienced it through Kongregate; as a standalone EXE, I've beaten it and I'm hungry for more.

[Doom]

Kazz, just a fyi, but your "a dollar an hour" standard means that RPGs and Final Fantasy 11/World of Warcraft in particular are the best games of all time.

I am also a bit confused Bongo, by your philosophy of "First Looks." What would you say of the first God of War, which puts all of it's effort into the first level and gradually becomes worse?

[Kayin]

But abstract goodiness is how the customer measures value, which determines number of sales, and number of sales determines optimal price point.

I mean that from a perspective of developer pride and not so the consumer perspective of worth. Yeah, you need to consider the consumer obviously. :P

Usually the deal is (to go lobst here) is it's not 2000 sales at 5$ and 1000 sales at 10$. More often then not it's like 300 at 10$ and 1000 at 5$.... Or 1000 at 5$ and 1200 at 10$

Theres almost always, with retrospect, a clear winner when it comes to price.

[Bongo Bill]

I am also a bit confused Bongo, by your philosophy of "First Looks." What would you say of the first God of War, which puts all of it's effort into the first level and gradually becomes worse?

I don't mean the first thing you see in a game, but every time you see something that looks new. You'd be having less good times in each successive level of God of War because at any given moment, you're getting your first impression of something new, and that first impression is that it's uglier than the last area.

[Classic]

Here I thought BB was making a depressing point about marketing: first impressions mean more than they should do consumers.

[Kazz]

Isn't Assassin's Creed a 6 hour game or some bullcrap?

BioShock 2 ain't a 50-hour game, that's for damn sure.

And that's why I bought neither of those games.

When a game is primarily a single-player experience, I usually won't buy it right away, because the game isn't going to evolve at all over time.  It'll be the same game five years from now, when you can pick it up for a song, as it is today.

Multiplayer games that I'm excited about, I tend to grab immediately.

[Kazz]

Kazz, just a fyi, but your "a dollar an hour" standard means that RPGs and Final Fantasy 11/World of Warcraft in particular are the best games of all time.

It's a measurement of value, not quality.

[Doom]

I am also a bit confused Bongo, by your philosophy of "First Looks." What would you say of the first God of War, which puts all of it's effort into the first level and gradually becomes worse?

I don't mean the first thing you see in a game, but every time you see something that looks new. You'd be having less good times in each successive level of God of War because at any given moment, you're getting your first impression of something new, and that first impression is that it's uglier than the last area.

I used God of War 1 as an example because it isn't a question of "been there, done that." The rest of the game just flat out isn't as good as it's ridiculously polished first level. In contrast, God of War 2 begins on a high note that it does a very good job of never dropping.

Value, not quality

True enough.

[Bongo Bill]

Yes, that also was my point. Every new thing you see is not as impressive as the last new thing you saw.

[Zaratustra]

now you can join the petition

http://www.kongregate.com/forums/3-general-gaming/topics/78251-petition-make-the-full-version-of-vvvvvv-free

[Frocto]

that makes me want to hurl

[Kayin]

Thats pretty sick. Cheaper? Sure, but free? Nigga please.

I find it funny that I sorta value Multiplayer games the same as Kazz but I buy in the opposite way. I can read reviews and have a decent idea if I'll like a single player game. Multiplayer games need to be around for awhile before I trust them to be any good. Of course Kazz's opinion still doesn't reflect real world prices decisions. On the other hand though, now we know whats required to get Kazz's money.

[Detonator]

If I were an indie game developer, I would rather sell 1500 copies at $10 than 1000 copies at $20.

Sure, I made $5000 less, but I have a 50% larger player base that will tell their friends and eagerly await my next game if they enjoyed it.

This would be especially important if my game had online multiplayer: a thriving online community would be vital for future sales and word-of-mouth.

[Phenwah]

I think Xbox Live Arcade's pricing has redefined the price point for download-sized games on the PC, as well. For example:

$5: Chime, Doom, Geometry Wars, Sonic, various arcade ports. Arcadey, pick-up-and-play gameplay, good for short bursts.
$10: 'Splosion Man, Alien Hominid HD, Ikaruga, Rez HD, The Maw. Games that have a retro look, but gameplay that is deep and lasts a few hours, at least.
$15: Banjo-Kazooie, Castle Crashers, Serious Sam HD, Shadow Complex. Deeper games running on fancier engines, often produced by big-budget studios.
$20: Penny Arcade, Sam & Max. Pretty much reserved for episodic content.

I like the pay-what-you-want model, especially when a PayPal or other donation link is available aside from the download link itself. RunMan: Race Around The World gives you the game for free, if you want it. Rifftrax, while not a game, has a donation link set up for people who downloaded a Rifftrax'd movie over bittorrent or watched a streaming video.

[Kazz]

i can't read your posts because i'm staring at your ferret's crotch

[Phenwah]

I think that says more about you than it does me.  

That said, sig adjusted! The offending line-that-was-totally-not-a-penis has been erased; see if you can spot the difference.

[Kazz]

trying so hard to spot the difference

so hard