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[Büge]

Utah outlaws miscarriages

Virginia Legislator says disabled children are God's punishment for abortion

[Miss Cat Ears]

Utah’s “Criminal Miscarriage” law:

   * expands the definition of illegal abortion to include miscarriages
   * removes immunity protections for women who have or seek illegal abortions
   * assumes women are “guilty of criminal homicide of an unborn child” if a pregnancy ends after “intentional, knowing, or reckless” behavior.

I can't honestly say I'm not okay with this, particularly the last point.

[MarsDragon]

When I was in sixth grade, my sister lost her first pregnancy in miscarriage. Sheer luck of the draw, shit happens. It really tore her and her husband up. Under this law she'd then be under investigation for "intentional, knowing, or reckless" behaviour. Even if they didn't find anything, it's still terrible to have to deal with that right after losing the baby you were hoping for.

So yeah, I'm pretty fucking horrified by this.

[TA]

Utah’s “Criminal Miscarriage” law:

   * expands the definition of illegal abortion to include miscarriages
   * removes immunity protections for women who have or seek illegal abortions
   * assumes women are “guilty of criminal homicide of an unborn child” if a pregnancy ends after “intentional, knowing, or reckless” behavior.

I can't honestly say I'm not okay with this, particularly the last point.

...

...

:what:

so like.  woman is pregnant.  runs down some stairs, slips, accidental miscarriage.  you're okay with criminal prosecution for involuntary manslaughter and a jail term?

Or, fuck, this is Utah so it's impossible to find an abortion provider within 200 miles where you don't run the risk of getting assaulted or killed, so a woman who's 3 months pregnant drinks some bleach to try to trigger a miscarriage.  You're okay with a conviction for first degree murder?

[Miss Cat Ears]

For a pregnant woman who drinks bleach? Absolutely.

[TA]

... what the fuck is wrong with you?

[Miss Cat Ears]

When you get pregnant and knowingly kill your fetus in inhumane ways, you deserve what you get.

If someone gets pregnant, has a kid, and can't take the responsibility to take care of it and it dies, they deserve the same.

[Mongrel]

Okay, but that doesn't address situations of accidental miscarriage and the impossibility of reliably determining whether one was intentional or not.

Anyway, leaving aside the usual ethical nightmares, IIRC this isn't the first time that someone has tried to legislate as if a fetus had rights equal to something that's already popped out. Correct me if I'm wrong but the usual outcome there was that the law has been ruled to be unconstitutional, right?

[Disposable Ninja]

When you get pregnant and knowingly kill your fetus in inhumane ways, you deserve what you get.

Yeah, the problem is, a lot of the women would get arrested for this probably wont be the ones who knowingly killed their fetuses. It probably will get pinned on a woman who really did accidentally fall down the stairs, or who didn't know she was pregnant before doing something body-destroying.

[TA]

Wow, okay.  So, just to be clear, do you think that abortion as a whole should be illegal?  If not, would you kindly explain where exactly you think the difference lies?

Okay, but that doesn't address situations of accidental miscarriage and the impossibility of reliably determining whether one was intentional or not.

Anyway, leaving aside the usual ethical nightmares, IIRC this isn't the first time that someone has tried to legislate as if a fetus had rights equal to something that's already popped out. Correct me if I'm wrong but the usual outcome there was that the law has been ruled to be unconstitutional, right?

Yes.  Because prior to viability, fetuses do not have rights under any legitimate legal theory that governs any law.  Even damages and prosecution for causing someone else to miscarry against her will are grounded in the interest of the mother, not the fetus.

[Miss Cat Ears]

Of course determining whether a miscarriage is accidental will be an issue, but KNOWINGLY endangering your unborn child should never be acceptable.  There are reasons why certain abortions are legal and illegal, and doing something like going out and binge drinking should be punished just as getting drunk and beating a kid to death or force feeding THEM alcohol until they die should be punished.

[Mongrel]

Upon further reflection if this isn't overturned, the ultimate outcome will simply be a lot of dumpster babies.  

[TA]

Upon further reflection if this isn't overturned, the ultimate outcome will simply be a lot of dumpster babies. 

Also unreported miscarriages, which will mean deaths from complications.

[Disposable Ninja]

Of course determining whether a miscarriage is accidental will be an issue, but KNOWINGLY endangering your unborn child should never be acceptable.  There are reasons why certain abortions are legal and illegal, and doing something like going out and binge drinking should be punished just as getting drunk and beating a kid to death or force feeding THEM alcohol until they die should be punished.

But the problem is that, unless you get a situation like the one cited in the article about the 17-year-old paying someone to do the deed, it's usually nigh impossible to determine guilt.

[Miss Cat Ears]

Also unreported miscarriages, which will mean deaths from complications.

I didn't even think of that.  That will be a result, and a terrible one.

To restate my opinion more clearly now that I've thought about it, I don't think all miscarriages should be punished.  But I do think people should be held responsible for their actions, and someone who intentionally causes a miscarriage in such horrible ways should be held accountable. 
I would be appalled if someone who tripped on stairs was punished, but I only meant to say I agree with the clearly intentional (and knowing) miscarriages.  If it's that important to end your pregnancy, go get a legal abortion.

[Classic]

I could understand criminalizing inducing miscarriage, for the same reason that suicide is criminalized.

As a man, I'm pretty fixed in my belief that carrying offspring to term is strictly the potential mother's prerogative. That said, I'm not sure why the limits for most abortions are placed at the start of the third trimester rather than at any other point. Maybe it's just crazy?

[TA]

And if a legal abortion isn't practically unavailable, due to the shrinking numbers of clinics, the presence of half your church in the picket line, financial incapacity, or being a minor?

If it's legal for you to drink, and it's legal for you to terminate your pregnancy, why are you saying it should be illegal to drink so much that it terminates your pregnancy?

[Doom]

I'm guessing it's just a matter of intent? Much as the separation between the degrees of murder.

Disposable Ninja says it's nigh-impossible to determine guilt, but.. well, I don't think the Sprite/Bleach Mix-up Defense really works.

[TA]

As a man, I'm pretty fixed in my belief that carrying offspring to term is strictly the potential mother's prerogative. That said, I'm not sure why the limits for most abortions are placed at the start of the third trimester rather than at any other point. Maybe it's just crazy?

In general terms, it's because the seventh month, give or take, is where a fetus can survive outside the womb.  They'd need extensive neonatal care, and it's not really possible to find a doctor who'd do it, but that's the point in fetal development when you could induce birth.  That's the basis for the concept of viability, a fetus that is "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid".

[TA]

I'm guessing it's just a matter of intent? Much as the separation between the degrees of murder.

Disposable Ninja says it's nigh-impossible to determine guilt, but.. well, I don't think the Sprite/Bleach Mix-up Defense really works.

Here's a crazy idea.  If it's legal for you to terminate your pregnancy given the current state of the pregnancy, there should be no circumstance where you, the mother, are criminally charged for terminating that pregnancy.  No matter the reason, no matter the intent, no matter the method.  The mother is the protected class in all regulations of abortion method, not the fetus.