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[Miss Cat Ears]

And if a legal abortion isn't practically unavailable, due to the shrinking numbers of clinics, the presence of half your church in the picket line, financial incapacity, or being a minor?

Then a good plan of action might be taking care of yourself well enough to either not become pregnant or take the morning after pill.  There are tons of options for people other than being reckless and doing horrible things.  If you're not going to get an abortion just because someone from your church might find out, then how is doing anything else any better?  Particularly when what you're doing could result in a viable human life to which you've caused severe damage.

You don't have to agree with me.  I just don't have a problem with punishing intentional miscarriages.

[TA]

So, I ask again.  Are you opposed to the legality of abortion in the first place?  And if not, what the hell do you think the difference is?

[Miss Cat Ears]

I said earlier that I think people should just get a legal abortion if they want to terminate a pregnancy.

To me, the difference is getting your pregnant cat spayed versus feeding it bleach/alcohol/beating it/squishing around on its stomach to ensure that the kittens wind up dead.

[TA]

Cats are not rational actors performing those actions on themselves.  People are.  Try again, and this time use an analogy that makes any kind of sense.

[Miss Cat Ears]

You know, I already stated my opinion, and you can go around yelling "YOU'RE WRONG!" all you want.  It doesn't change my opinion.

[TA]

And while we're at it, explain how your concept of "Sorry, 16 year old, you shouldn't have had sex while having parents that wouldn't consent to an abortion and living in a conservative rural county that elects judges who won't give you a judicial bypass!  Hope that life sentence for aggravated murder teaches you better!" serves any justifiable purpose.

[Miss Cat Ears]

It's true, condoms are really complicated.

[TA]

"Oh, and it was twins?  Silly girl, that means you're eligible for the death penalty!"

Also grounds for imposition of the death penalty: 13 year old girl doesn't want to get her 14 year old boyfriend in trouble, you give your friend ten bucks to punch you in the stomach, or this was your second miscarriage.

[Kashan]

Of course determining whether a miscarriage is accidental will be an issue, but KNOWINGLY endangering your unborn child should never be acceptable.  There are reasons why certain abortions are legal and illegal, and doing something like going out and binge drinking should be punished just as getting drunk and beating a kid to death or force feeding THEM alcohol until they die should be punished.

You realize that legal abortion knowingly endangers the fetus right? How does the logic you used here separate a standard abortion from hiring a doctor to kill your child?

[Brentai]

Ignoring everyone else in this thread, it seems like we are a law that makes it illegal to be generally irresponsible if you have an accidental pregnancy.

In other words, it's illegal to have an accidental pregnancy.

[Detonator]

It's sad that restrictive abortion laws can force a mother to do dangerous things to terminate her pregnancy, but making THAT illegal will just worsen the situation, perhaps forcing her to forego medical care in fear of investigation and/or prosecution.

And to say "you deserve it if you were too stupid to wear a condom" seems so immature as to make me wonder what could possibly cause you to say it.  MCE, you've implied you're pro-choice, so we're seeing some sort of moral dissonance here.  This is not TA shouting "YOU'RE WRONG", it's asking you to clarify how one situation is different from another.

I can understand the gut reaction of "purposeful miscarriage shouldn't be okay", but I can't understand hanging on to that notion in light of what's been said here.

[Doom]

I'm guessing it's just a matter of intent? Much as the separation between the degrees of murder.

Disposable Ninja says it's nigh-impossible to determine guilt, but.. well, I don't think the Sprite/Bleach Mix-up Defense really works.

Here's a crazy idea.  If it's legal for you to terminate your pregnancy given the current state of the pregnancy, there should be no circumstance where you, the mother, are criminally charged for terminating that pregnancy.  No matter the reason, no matter the intent, no matter the method.  The mother is the protected class in all regulations of abortion method, not the fetus.

If Abortion were a more legal and mainstream thing, sure, there probably wouldn't be any real misunderstandings? As it is, I'm just saying, there's a bit of a different intent behind "I fell down the stairs" and "well, I drank some Bleach."

I guess that is where Utah is willing to make a stand. I'm just observing the difference, not really making a stand. I am entirely abortion neutral.

[Miss Cat Ears]

It's just how I feel.  I'm okay with legal abortion.  I'm also okay with punishing people who intentionally attempt to miscarriage.  I'm not saying anyone has to feel the same way.

[TA]

I'm guessing it's just a matter of intent? Much as the separation between the degrees of murder.

Disposable Ninja says it's nigh-impossible to determine guilt, but.. well, I don't think the Sprite/Bleach Mix-up Defense really works.

Here's a crazy idea.  If it's legal for you to terminate your pregnancy given the current state of the pregnancy, there should be no circumstance where you, the mother, are criminally charged for terminating that pregnancy.  No matter the reason, no matter the intent, no matter the method.  The mother is the protected class in all regulations of abortion method, not the fetus.

If Abortion were a more legal and mainstream thing, sure, there probably wouldn't be any real misunderstandings? As it is, I'm just saying, there's a bit of a different intent behind "I fell down the stairs" and "well, I drank some Bleach."

I guess that is where Utah is willing to make a stand. I'm just observing the difference, not really making a stand. I am entirely abortion neutral.

Well, yes, there is a difference in intent between "I fell down the stairs" and "I drank some bleach".  Utah's criminalizing both, if you were going down the stairs at what the jury deems an unsafe speed.

The point is that there's no difference in intent between "I went to an abortion clinic" and "I couldn't afford to drive across the state to pay several hundred dollars for an abortion clinic, so I drank some bleach".

[TA]

also this is probably about due to split off

[Royal☭]

It's just how I feel.  I'm okay with legal abortion.  I'm also okay with punishing people who intentionally attempt to miscarriage.

Not to pick on you, but what is the difference?

[MarsDragon]

Also MCE, "just use a birth control" is really easy to say when you have a good sex education. Most of these kids will have been raised with abstinence-only and will have no idea of how to use any form of birth control, assuming they can find it in their area.

[TA]

And "availability of abortions" is the only method that can guarantee you won't give birth.

[SCD]

Here's a question:  Since when has the state's involvement in a women's uterus been a good thing?

[Miss Cat Ears]

I was raised under abstinence only education and I still managed to, amazingly, not get pregnant. 

But then again, you might as well hit an animal over the head with a shovel instead of driving somewhere to have it put to sleep.  The intent's the same, right? Right?