Topic: Miscarriage of Justice (Read 6905 times)

Rico · « **Reply #60 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:14:50 PM »

It's pretty amazing to me that people are pretending to not understand the difference between a doctor putting a dog to sleep and beating a dog to death.

TA · « **Reply #61 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:16:21 PM »

Nobody fails to understand that. It's a bad analogy. The situation is not comparable, and beating a dog to death has absolutely nothing in common with inducing a miscarriage except the mess involved.

Miss Cat Ears · « **Reply #62 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:17:18 PM »

The difference? ONE I AM OKAY WITH. ONE I'M NOT.

Rico · « **Reply #63 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:17:56 PM »

But you're a girl why the fuck do we care what you think about abortion.

TA · « **Reply #64 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:18:54 PM »

Quote from: Miss Cat Ears on February 25, 2010, 07:17:18 PM

The difference? ONE I AM OKAY WITH. ONE I'M NOT.

"I'm okay with one and not the other because one of them I'm okay with, and the other I'm not."

Do you at least understand how this kind of falls short as an explanation of why you're okay with one but not the other?

inyandep · « **Reply #65 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:19:13 PM »

Quote from: Miss Cat Ears on February 25, 2010, 07:12:16 PM

And again, stating my opinion, not something that's a fact or not, is totally different from stating whether something is right or wrong. Do you attack people of other religions the same way?

yeah i also insert something here about nazis or something to invoke godwin's law. i spend the rest of my time screaming wildly at brick walls, spit and phlegm oozing from the corner of my mouth as it's forced up my raw, bleeding throat.

for the record i think it's totally not cool to force a miscarriage through some kind of crazy hamfisted method (morning after pill? cool, whatever, that's SCIENCE!) but i also find it pretty disgusting that in response to "a woman paid 150$ to have a man punch her in the stomach until she miscarried a child" lawmakers go "oh well cool how do we put the screws to her for that" instead of "why the christing fuck did she pay a man to beat her into an abortion".

Quote from: Rico on February 25, 2010, 07:14:50 PM

It's pretty amazing to me that people are pretending to not understand the difference between a doctor putting a dog to sleep and beating a dog to death.

the difference is what, 20 bucks and a brick

lol

no seriously this has practically nothing to do with the conversation because a) dogs are fully sentient and aware and b) they don't have human rights and c) honestly seriously.

now if it were socially unacceptable to have a doctor put your dog to sleep and every time you went to church your pastor railed against those sinful veterinarians and every few months someone who did canine euthanasia was fatally shot for their job, then sure. whatever yeah maybe those will start vaguely being similar topics.

Detonator · « **Reply #66 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:20:04 PM »

Okay, MCE has repeatedly admitted her viewpoint is not based off of facts or logic, and she is not willing to subject it to such.

I think this discussion is pretty much over.

Quote from: Rico on February 25, 2010, 07:14:50 PM

It's pretty amazing to me that people are pretending to not understand the difference between a doctor putting a dog to sleep and beating a dog to death.

I was being a bit facetious there, and I apologize for that. Still, it's already been revealed as a bad analogy.

Büge · « **Reply #67 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:21:34 PM »

Topical!

A pregnant woman in Des Moines, who had fallen down some stairs, was arrested because she admitted she was hesitant about her pregnancy.

inyandep · « **Reply #68 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:22:09 PM »

oh ok also despite the fact that i'll hit post and there will be like 5 new responses, i'd just like to get this out there.

MCE IS NOT COOL WITH PEOPLE FORCEFULLY AND INTENTIONALLY MISCARRYING CHILDREN. AND THAT IS A PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE OPINION THAT I WOULD HOPE MANY OF US SHARE, BUT IF YOU DO NOT, THEN WHATEVER, COOL.

oh also in addition to that she's cool with people being put in jail for murder because of it.

there the end

Detonator · « **Reply #69 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:26:12 PM »

MCE, you need to come to peace with the fact that we will never be satisfied with your explanation as it stands, so you should really stop repeating it like we didn't "get it" the last time. This thread is just going to continue spinning in place, and I don't see it as particularly beneficial for anyone for it to continue that way.

inyandep · « **Reply #70 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:33:09 PM »

you got to believe though that if this law does pass, it could open the door for the best A-Team knockoff ever

think about it: they could even keep the name

Hraedon · « **Reply #71 on:** February 25, 2010, 07:42:34 PM »

New to this particular forum, but some people seem to be taking for granted that there is universal and easy access to abortion in states as awful as utah: this is wrong. The vast majority of counties in utah do not have any abortion providers, and there are a grand total of six in the entire state. This translates into 55% of utah's women lacking reasonable access to abortion, unless you define "traveling 50 to 100 miles to get to a clinic, leaving out all of the other bullshit you need to do" as reasonable access. If your contention is that abortion is preferable to back alley methods, you'd be better served expanding access to abortion in these theocratic backwater states.

Additionally, as many other people have discussed, unless you can prove that a fetus feels pain at any point prior to the legal limits of abortion there is absolutely no moral difference between an induced miscarriage and an abortion. Beyond that, half of all pregnancies and 15-20% of all realized/recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage naturally; are you comfortable with the implications of criminalizing a naturally occurring and to some degree uncontrollable phenomenon?

Finally, we can't even reliably determine motive, as if that should matter. Teenagers believe, in significant numbers, that bleach prevents HIV and/or pregnancy; now you need to prove that a given woman both knew she was pregnant and drank bleach (for example) in an effort to terminate that pregnancy, rather than some other misguided reasoning. All of this so that we can punish poor, uneducated women for having sex or being unlucky; is it worth it?

Brentai · « **Reply #72 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:10:06 PM »

I wouldn't base a decision like whether or not to terminate a pregnancy on something like not being willing to drive the distance between here and LA, but anyway.

There is a sane argument for this under all the bullshit rhetoric, which is that intentionally causing a miscarriage is extremely hazardous to one's own definitely-living, fully-grown health. There's an argument that that's the person's own business but, fuck, if I'm going to be ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt, then there should be some responsibility on the part of a person who ~~drank bleach no that's cliche~~ ~~fell down some stairs no that's even more cliche~~ FALCKOWN PAUNCH!!!

Of course this argument only works if there is a safer and more responsible action available, which okay no there really isn't. The people of the fine state of Utah will of course argue that the safe and responsible action is to have the damn baby, but that's the kid of someone who was going to harm herself to get rid of it. Hope you've got a big enough social services budget to cover that shit.

PS: Good job on the thread title, Det.

Hraedon · « **Reply #73 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:26:46 PM »

Quote from: Brentai on February 25, 2010, 08:10:06 PM

I wouldn't base a decision like whether or not to terminate a pregnancy on something like not being willing to drive the distance between here and LA, but anyway.

Thanks for missing the point. We're assuming that the decision has been made, so the "debate," such as it is, is over method. The pertinent thing to note is that putting hurdles between women and abortion doesn't stop abortion, but does dramatically decrease the ability of women to safely terminate their pregnancies.

Quote

There is a sane argument for this under all the bullshit rhetoric, which is that intentionally causing a miscarriage is extremely hazardous to one's own definitely-living, fully-grown health. There's an argument that that's the person's own business but, fuck, if I'm going to be ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt, then there should be some responsibility on the part of a person who ~~drank bleach no that's cliche~~ ~~fell down some stairs no that's even more cliche~~ FALCKOWN PAUNCH!!!

Fine. Tell me how we determine the borderline (realistically, almost all of them) cases. Or cases where a woman who has miscarried goes to her doctor for an unrelated reason and then boom jail time.

Quote

Of course this argument only works if there is a safer and more responsible action available, which okay no there really isn't. The people of the fine state of Utah will of course argue that the safe and responsible action is to have the damn baby, but that's the kid of someone who was going to harm herself to get rid of it. Hope you've got a big enough social services budget to cover that shit.

If actually promoting responsibility were the goal, there are any number of measures states like Utah could implement that would actually advance that goal.

Classic · « **Reply #74 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:29:18 PM »

I'd look it up myself, but I'm squeamish. How are abortions usually performed?

François · « **Reply #75 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:33:36 PM »

Quote from: TA on February 25, 2010, 07:16:21 PM

Nobody fails to understand that. It's a bad analogy. The situation is not comparable, and beating a dog to death has absolutely nothing in common with inducing a miscarriage except the mess involved.

I guess some people want to see such weighty deeds performed with a measure of dignity. Isn't that just downright bizarre?

Hraedon · « **Reply #76 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:40:01 PM »

Quote from: ZedPower on February 25, 2010, 08:33:36 PM

I guess some people want to see such weighty deeds performed with a measure of dignity and want to criminalize anything not meeting that standard. Isn't that just downright bizarre?

Yes, it is. There is no "dignity" in shoving your way through a throng of antiabortion zealots, nor is there some sort of dignity in jumping through hoops that could charitably be described as arbitrary. The only concerns that matter enough for the state to be involved are outcomes. This law does not in any reasonable way address outcomes.

François · « **Reply #77 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:44:52 PM »

The law is fucked up, but I don't think the distinction that MCE wants to make is.

TA · « **Reply #78 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:48:24 PM »

The distinction MCE appears to want to make is an arbitrary distinction of propriety beyond which a legal abortion becomes a murder charge. That is extremely fucked up.

Hraedon · « **Reply #79 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:52:39 PM »

Quote from: ZedPower on February 25, 2010, 08:44:52 PM

The law is fucked up, but I don't think the distinction that MCE wants to make is.

Her "distinction" is that method matters to a cluster of cells that does not feel pain or have any ability to reason, or that it should matter to us. If there were a way to induce a miscarriage that had no more risk than an abortion, what in the world would be a credible objection? If the relative risk is the concern, then why not discuss reasonable policies to advance that goal, rather than drawing a meaningless line in the sand?

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Author Topic: Miscarriage of Justice (Read 6905 times)